So Neck Flip hits twice on crouchers now?
When it hit’s once, is it only the first hit or only the second that connects? If it’s the first, is the hitsun on the one hit that large you can whiff the second and recover before the cr.lk?
I’ve made this link before, I just never knew the theory behind what’s happening.
The 2nd hit is +2 but it’s got 2 active frames
So if you hit with the last (2nd) active frame it becomes +3 and allows cr.lk to combo
It actually has 3 active frames I believe, but we normally hit on the 2nd. Normally with resets into it you can get the 3rd active frame to hit.
Oh right the 2nd hit got 3 active frames, it’s the first one that’s got 2.
Unless i remember wrong again lol… I think it’s 2*3
Wait I just remembered, didnt they bump up Neck flips second hit active frames from 3 to 5? Doesnt this decrease his frame advantage?
Run->Neck Flip now has a larger downwards hitbox.
I think that’s the only thing they did to the move. The “Full list of changes” on eventhubs has no other changes at least.
2 frame EX tatsu is silly. Its strong, and a good buff no doubt, but it doesnt address the actual weaknesses of the character… lol
They addressed his mechanical flaws
I see. So a 2-hit neck flip connects too early on the 2nd hit to link into cr.lk.
Which resets do you guys use to get the last active from on the 2nd hit? Are there certain crouching chars this will/won’t work?
It’s basically from air resets notably off bushin chain throw, strict timing but it’s possible.
Neck Flip generally works good on a crouching, (record the opponent holding down-back) Blanka the best because Guy can combo straight into crLp or Ex Tatsu. Ryu, Ken, Rufus, Makoto it works good on as well because Guy can combo crLk, crLp, stMp ~ Run Slide.
Hey fellow Guy players. I seldom may provide contribution but I am currently working on my 1st Game in Game Design that is a Fighter & it is time consuming. so Coming from a Design perspective as well as a competitive player. Seeing some of your contributions such Af0, Murderous, Shadoken, Nebbiez, Silhouette,G.Tech, MadMa3str0, Darryl, & Otinohso. I will post my suggestions shortly. Others are also welcome to provide feedback if you like, but not all comments will be taken seriously for various reason. not to say some people’s comments are more valued than others. but I have learn in Game Design to take certain Criticism Critically in the perspective of with respect to individual concern
Guy’s Ultra Buff suggestions: these will also have reasons why and I am currently talking with King Black Toof to make a Mod for it as well to aid for more Visual learners. This will be Order in Categories with reasons to each buff and comparison to equal assessment of how it will effect gameplay. I also would like to say the walk speed buff that was given is Most likely not going to be adequate 10 % and should be around the range of Dudley’s if Ken is now faster than him
**Changes to Normal Attacks
1: Far HP**
{Reason: This Change is for the Red Focus Mechanic. Currently I have tested & 21 frames of hit stun is need for a level 1 focus to be successful & this meets the requirement and will allow a use for it with Guy. Haven’t been able to test it out but based on current standards of Guy’s Push back levels of specific Combo’s he will not be too good with it consider his only attacks to hit it are close & have very little room for expansion. Some Examples what may be attempted but will fail based on trial basis. }
Cl.HK-far MP-HP-RFA=** Fail**, Cl.MK-far MP-HP-RFA=** Fail**, These are probably the most ideally thought of Combo’s but they won’t work & push the foe right out of attack range. Theoretically our options as Guy players are between the* (Close) Versions of MP or HP, and Lastly Close MP into HP Target Combo* for more scaling. With these obvious Choices the only smart option is just HP for less scaling
[Special] 1st make it so you are able to Focus Cancel this move. Reduce the push back accordingly on Hit stun for proper assessment
2: MP-HP Target Combo
{Reason: This Move is currently just unsatisfactory in all of its attempts even when seen in Ultra this will whiff w/ heavy recovery, this needs to move forward as the 2nd attack is performed. This will also aid with guy pushing the opponent in the corner faster, & prevent the fall out of EX Red Focus Attack Range}
[Movement] increase the distance by 35% forward on the 2nd Hit of the string
3: Close HP
{Reason: Guy’s Most Notable Anti Air “Cr.MP” has been taken but that was his main tool for when players jump in at close attack / Cross up range, now that he no longer has it this should be a suffice and be able to back up those situations such as Neutral Jumping too close where far won’t read also to also point out there are characters with steep jump angle such as Blanka & Adon who will typically be in this Range, as well being in this area with Jump arc altering move like LK/EX air Jaguar Kick. Also neither of those can be special cancel and this one can allowing further scare tactics of run and Flip follow ups. Not a Game-breaking Change}
[Hit box] increase the Hit box vertically both up and down: see (Abel’s Close HP), to aid in anti-air capabilities
[Frame Data] change frame data to match following from (5-2-19) for Startup/Active/Recovery to
(5-4-17) for Startup/Active/Recovery. Better for Anti Air, & possibly new meaty opportunities
4: Far LK
{Reason: Ryu’s far LK is 5 frame startup, Ken’s far LK is** 4 frame startup**, Akuma’s far LK is 3 frame startup, and these are all faster and serve the same purpose. Guy is a Ninja & is considered fast, but I respectfully disagree, & I’m not even asking for the faster of the version’s. In Alpha/Zero this was able to be cancelled into a special move, not only would this preserve Guys Individualism. In its current state of 14 Fr. of Hit stun, it would be changed so it is 13 Fr. of Hit stun if still just +3 which is less & can only combo into all unsafe special’s "Ex Hozanto, Shadow Kick, & Tatsu’s, and provide another standing go to Normal attack, while cancelling into run or flip [unsafely btw]. Not a Game-breaking Change}
[Special] 1st change this so has a hurt box similar to him far Stand MK for Bottom Leg. 2nd would be to make this move is Special Cancelable
[Frame Data] change frame data to match following from **(6-2-9) for Startup/Active/Recovery to
(5-3-7) for Startup/Active/Recovery**
5: Forward Jump MK (Cross up)
{Reason: Many characters simply Crouch under this, this is Guy’s Cross up and it is surprising to have the option to duck under and overhead even with set ups. Please fix this so it hits deeper on the back end, even on the level of Low Profile moves would be great if it didn’t risk becoming OP}
[Special] make it so you are not able to crouch under this move. It is and Overhead & ducking this should be considered as an illogical option
Changes to Special Move Attacks
6: LK Bushin Senpuu Kyaku
{Reason: Another on of Guy’s Moves with many flaws some even deem it, a useless moves. this does not have much invulnerability and often misses its final hit, unless in the corner, I myself use it to get out of some frame traps due to its mid-level minor invulnerability, changing this would aid in that, I am still fully committed to the move}
[Frame Data] change frame data Startup being 10 F to 8 F its Invulnerability stops at the 9 frame and it is a Fully Committed move. Change from**“2(6)1(7)1” to be “2(5)2(5)3”** with the [5’s] being the in-active gap window. This will still be mid-level minor invulnerability and lose to lows as it currently does.
7: LP Hozanto
{Reason: This Move is currently isn’t good for avoiding Fireballs which is 1 off its intended purposes. Also this will help the Jump Trap from Far MP. Also on many cases from Target combo 1 this will whiff w/ heavy recovery, especially when attempting to go for chip safely with the some-what extended Target Combo; It was already exhibited in horrid comparison to Yun’s in this thread.}
[Hit box] increase the Hit box vertically & horizontally
[Movement] increase the distance by 15% forward
[Special] change the projectile inv. From 5-15 to 3-16
**Changes to EX Special Move Attacks
8: EX Hozanto
**
{Reason: This Move is too slow as is as currently is, it has no invulnerability and will lose to any opposition of a smarter player. this will help punishes and whiff punishes as well also this is 1 of guys main ways into Ultra. Please also take into Consideration of the distance and comparison of moves with similar spacing such as Fei Long’s Rekka’s which also start up in the same time frame, & do not require bar. As well as this would provide new damaging yet meter + Execution dependent combo’s such as** (Cl.HK-HP.-EX Hozanto-Ultra 1)**}
[Frame Data] change the Startup frames from 10 to 7, Reduce Push back on block
9: EX Run – Neck Flip this was also considered before the 2frame tatsu so take it as such as if it is not a permanent option
{Reason: Guy’s Mix up is Considered Laughable at best by many ***(I took a Survey on this)***. This would give him a threat when he has Meter, which is currently difficult in High Level when Your Opponent is well Knowledgeable of your options. Many other characters have a similar threat tactic w/ Meter. [i.e.; **Evil Ryu, Adon, Abel, &Makoto**]. Lastly all of his run options can easily be stopped by focus & now that Red Focus has been introduced. If this is made it will make it so Guy is not deterred by it! (Free to it). Many other characters have an Armor Breaking (And/Or) Overhead with Meter, why not Guy. I am aware the others are not able to combo after their similar attacks but also none of them do Petty Damage as guy does either. Also when considering this change please take into a 5 frame window of punish [which can be hit out of] at its best. Fairly because of it having 4+23 frame start up. Keep in mind some of the characters have no window outside of reversal. Not a Game breaking Change}
[Frame Data] increase the frame Advantage on hit from +2 to +4
[Special] Additions being armor breaking both hits, Grab Invulnerable during Turn animation, with airborne soft knockdown, and has the same Attack box as Non EX
[Hit box] 1st increase the Hit box vertically both up & down (Specifically 2nd Hit Part). 2nd lower it so it doesn’t jump over some female crouched characters (Juri, Rose, Chun, Etc.) & will consistently hit Low Profile moves
10: EX Bushin Flip
{Reason: Guy’s Move set has many futile or 1 Dimensional moves. Now that Delayed wake up is going to stop his ability to lock down his foe, his not bad match up’s he will have more difficulty. This will give him possibility to throw off with more surprising option’s and new set ups. Also seeing as the EX has a further lower grab box & elbow can fish for new counter hit set ups and baits as well}
[Special] change this so this move has multiple* Variations based on button press, Similar to Juri Fireball*
LP+HP = will equal the normal tracking EX Flip Guy has Now
LP+MP = will jump lower to the typical LP arc to aid and punishing fireball and grapple attempts, and be considered air borne earlier than it current 1
MP+HP = will have the same height as the LP+HP but will allow Movement Control See Blanka’s Rainbow ball (Super Ed.)
I have two simple questions to determine if I should write a wall of text or not.
Why do you guys claim that Guy need Buffs instead of nerfs? And what do you guys claim are his weaknesses? Go.
Nah, go ahead and write a wall of text. I don’t think Guy is bad, and I think most people here would agree, but if you honestly think he was top-tier in any incarnation before then… lol
Anyways, man… 2 frame ex tatsu… godlike. I’m pretty sure that will be the only 2 frame move in the game that is completely invincible and is not an ultra (I can only think of EX command grabs often being 2 frames, but I don’t know any that are both hit and throw invincible.)
I have to mention the walk speed buff helps, take into thought what Guy initially has and having tested this in Ultra when he was given the 10% speed buff, it does help out. Even though it will likely go unnoticed you’ll realize how good it is after playing and testing it in matches. (Also Ken’s walkspeed isn’t anywhere close to Akuma’s, his may rival Ryu’s or Guy’s Ultra walk speed)
1-Far.HP could it be good? Sure, but the thing is this move will mostly used to Poke, Also if you change that characteristic you’re giving Guy a bigger opportunity. Which happens to be the Big/Wide body combo will likely work on the entire cast. It’d be a great addition for Guy on his punish game because it gives me bigger opportunity for Damage and Stun and less scaling into Ultra, but that’s just it, he’ll be given a standalone option that can be achieved on one small mistake. Thus giving Guy a huge momentum shift ability without risk. I personally find that to be a little too strong for Guy.
2- TC it’s been adjusted, does it still whiff surely it does but the thing is, this move didn’t always hit in the past, there is a range where the TC won’t hit in Alpha games and far.hp wouldn’t come out, cl.hp still would, as long as it is reasonable range for it to connect in Ultra, which I personally believe that should be after CL.HK xx TC would be a satisfying range, this at least allows cr.lp x2 to work on all characters when crouching I’d assume and hopefully on the new characters after their hurtboxes were adjusted properly. Having him move forward though would give him too much harassment for characters without good DPs to deal with. There’ more issue there now given the fact that -5 on FADC is now apparent for many. With TC being able to move forward on the HP portion this gives Guy a resilient effort for doing TC xx Runstop for a corner push, given he’s at -1 now and the ability to move forward with TC I wouldn’t be surprised if you could just do TC xx Runstop to the corner without the need of having to move forward to get back into TC range. Leaving the only thing you would have to do is walk back or crouch block to possible whiff punish or block a possible DP. Again with Guy’s pressure and corner punish currently this would be a bit too strong of a buff.
3- This I can wholeheartedly agree with as this was once an anti air (albeit not a unbeatable one) but known the less an AA for Guy. Now Cr.MP isn’t completely removed from AA gratitude it is just simply not as “OP” as i once was, which means you’ll have to have spacing and timing much more strictly now to save thyself. I’ve seen St.HP used as an AE in currently AE but it isn’t great by any means usually.
4- This I can agree with but considering they buffed this to actually be used as an anti air for what it is worth… they would also have to slightly buff the lower hitbox so it can be used on the ground more efficiently, but considering how many people like to press buttons and such I’m not sure how effective this change would be, it’d likely catch a few people off guard as it did in Alpha 2 but it seems Capcom wants this to just be another anti air for Guy (likely for divekicks) as it was in Alpha 3.
5- Agreed
6- I have to mention the mid invincibility on LK tatsu lasts a lot longer than one may think, otherwise Honda’s headbutt would hit Guy out of it before the move is active or his entire lower half doesn’t have a hitbox once active (more or likely the case) I can agree with it through 2 a frame change doesn’t make a huge difference as you can still be punished heavily.
7- I can agree with everything but I personally don’t think this move is meant to punish fireballs and more so to be a combo/pressure tool as it always was. Only HP Hozanto punished FBs and that was only introduced in Alpha 3. Also the movement speed increase disrupts the ability for meterless Ultras on most of the cast on specific combos. Given the increase on TC and -1 Runstop coming to us, this move could stay the same as now we have another tool to gives us the pressure (if not better) minus the small chip damage and at a better distance for that matter.
8- Disagree, few reasons why. This would Guy too much mileage, and unlike Fei’s Rekkas Guy is able to make this move safe at -1 from FADC forward and it armor breaks without have to go into a second hit where he can be interrupted, the change to 7 frames would require this move to be even more negative on block and FADC foward to be fair. Not only does this give Guy better combo opportunity, it aids in whiff punishing and aids in punishing moves -7 or worse. Another combo he could do is EX hozanto into EX hozanto in the corner to probably everyone in the cast without FADC, this is only currently possible on 3-4 characters in AE. If Guy was also to get your first change on Far.HP and everyone gets hit by the Cl.HK, ST.HP, ST.MP with 2 bars you can get a guarantee 700-800 Stun on most if not all the cast in the corner and 300-400 damage. Even for Guy that’s far too strong especially if you get random hits with St.HP or Cr.HP, easy corner push with mid-low risk and high reward.
9- I personally want this to be how it was described before the final changes when it was able to hit consistently in the air twice. That’s just me personally, the idea of it being armor breaking would be a nice addition given its slow start up but this move didn’t receive the hitbox buff that Normal Run OH did so on some characters you’ll only get one hit, which changes that +4 to +7 due to counterhit, Keeping it at 2 would be better cause then Guy doesn’t get huge mileage off of it and his damage output is great as is and you’ll always be able to link into Bushin Chain with that +4. So for me here I’d rather it be reverted to how it was formerly announced to be before the final changes.
10- I’d rather not have this move findled with at least in the aspect of Rainbow Ball. With the Rainbow Ball change you’re expecting your opponent to do something on their wake up or against and having the free ability to punish for 180, seems a bit much no? Even though they could still AA you with a normal, or just simply crouch block, it gives Guy too much ability to be threatening and advancement on the opponent for one bar as well as a great bait maneuver. Though even with Delayed wakeup and such the move currently would still be fine because you can used delayed setups to still catch your opponent off guard. The LP like movement is a nice suggestion but again it can give Guy a bigger advantage point than what you may possibly be thinking. I’m already thinking Guy will be top 15 in Ultra with what we know now.
Though I do believe it is rather pointless to make any change list now considering final list was released and the ONLY possible way they could change anything is to possibly revert something before console release as Decapre is released and open to everyone then, it seems a bit doubtful. At this point if any Loketests are even done it just seems to be a opportunity for those that couldn’t participate in the tests and requests for Ultra to just be able to test out the game and new mechanics fully.
Guy’s main footsie button has 16 frames recovery on it and its hitbox can be low profiled despite its long range. For comparisons sake, Cammy’s main footsie tool has 9 frame recovery.
His mixups are all shit and if you know the matchup you will never get hit by them offline.
His “pressure” is non existent since he is negative after run stop and you cant really frame trap from st.mp so if you see that button just mash jab/cr tech/dp, if you see target combo stop mashing dp but you can happily keep mashing jab/cr.tech.
Really the only things going for him are his godlike crouch tech and his st.mp having great range. Other than that he is a character with more or less all his special moves being gimmicky crap or combo enders.
Thank you for your Feedback Blood. I also am well aware of the Damage opportunities suggested by the EX Hozanto Buff that I suggested. It was compiled with the though in mind of other characters who currently do that amount of Damage and Stun with the same amount of Meter, who consequently don’t need to be specifically in the Corner. i am also aware of the Invincibility levels on LK Senpuu it was compiled as well with direct focus on having More Core active frames as to making the Characters Move being utilized in High Level situation more frequently as well as more versatility. they were modified to also add innovation for and to promote that attack as an ender. I have Tested the Target combo heavily & the Ideal combo’s that I mentioned will not work unless the movement is adjusted on the Horizontal axis. Please take the time to check out attempting Cl.HK, FarMP/HP/ Focus Attack if you could kindly show a video of the results for others in the current build to show the results (or Anyone for that matter). A directly compiled that St.HP or Cr.HP, easy corner push with mid-low risk and high reward. A Max Range FP Hitting won’t allow MP to, yet (Which is Seldom) would Provide exactly +7 would link into a Visual 1 frame link which is similar to LP HZO into Free Corner Ultra (which is and Advance level Tactic). So Please Don’t Let your Level of Knowledge with said character limit the overall play-style of multiple players. Lastly on the mention of EX Bushin Flip. this is purely to provide variety. After Rigorous Studies it is been display that regardless of circumstances Capcom Typically does not add many new move templates to a characters Moveset. I know this as a Game Designer now it is very difficult & financially risky. however they have shown that they will consistently reuse and animation on multiple accords w/ different properties to provide a test area on the function of a move being considered a legitimate account. this suggestion is well with in the coding protocol as well as the animation protocol consider it would not necessarily be **“New” ** also based on the terms of what I asked to be capable in the Move it may only be useful in limited situations given regardless of the level of the Bushin flip Guy is Mandatory committed to perform the entire 1st flip. thus leaving a gap. it merely provides a greater range of options to consider when “Meta-Game” is established in a match and to provide another Pseudo threat to Impose if even just a mental 1. but I once again thank you. I only ask if you have any replays of you play-style you would allow me to watch b/c Guy character arc is an interesting 1 and I will attempt to preserve it in the 1st fighting title I create in a later character iteration due to the complexity of his risk reward ratio