Thanks man! Now that’s a pretty cool idea right there on the Mag/RR/Frank team. I’ve been working on my RR some for Dante/Frank/Raccoon, and my Mags for Magnus/Dante/Frank, but I might combine the two and experiment with that a little to practice both at once. A Magneto confirm off log trap would be braindead and allow Frank to THC with RR and eliminate the inconsistency you get if cart wall bounces. It is pretty hard for me to play without Jam Session these days though. It’s just ridiculous lol.
And I’m getting home this afternoon finally (meaning I can test/record again), so I’ve been doing a lot of theory-crafting on Cap/Dante combos with multiple hard tags. It could be more consistent than it sounds, and it’d add a lot of damage over the combo I posted above.
We’ll see. I also wanna test some other hard tag stuff, but I have a suspicion that MODOK might have a consistent one for Frank. Depends on whether Frank can link something after the HTH, though.
So yeah I was labbing Cap/Dante/Frank for a while and you can do some cool things with Shield Slash. Something like s.M(+Cap)cr.H where you cancel the s.M as fast as possible is 1) safe and 2) gives you your choice of a either free forward throw (Jam Session picks it up) between the hits of Shield Slash or a really tight roll left/right that I’d imagine is very hard to block. Timed correctly I wasn’t able to throw the roll just by mashing a direction and H either, which is pretty badass. There are definitely no normals that can get through the frame trap.
The other really interesting thing is that the same string messes with throw techs. So if I do s.M(+Cap)cr.H, go for the throw, and it gets teched, the second hit of Shield Slash actually forces the opponent to block again right after the tech. Since mashing back throw to tech would be pretty logical, that’s not always going to do anything, but a character (like Frank) would would prefer a forward throw is going to have to mash f.H and go back to blocking immediately after the tech or get hit. If it is blocked you get a second throw attempt almost immediately or a pretty abusrd ambiguous crossup with j.M j.S or j.dH. The second hit of Shield Slash pulls the opponent towards you, so you can actually do all of this even if the opponent does an early advancing guard vs. the chainsaws. You have time to dash and still get both throw attempts or whatever. Characters with really fast normals (Morrigan’s cr.L) can actually mash a normal out between the SS hits, but if you do the mixup once and think it might get mashed you can obviously just do a meaty s.M. The same goes for characters mashing pushblock.
Anyway it’s a pretty interesting setup that might create some cool opportunities. I’ll post a video of it a little later if anyone’s interesting. Shield Slash seems like a fairly decent assist really. Not as good as other horizontals in a lot of ways, but the frame trap helps make up for some of that.
EDIT:Here are a few examples I just threw together:
After experimenting with a lot of teams, I’m fairly certain that Frank’s beat team is Magneto/Dante/Frank. You get level 4 from at least 4 situations and in 4 different ways depending on your preference, execution, meter, or even confirm/starter. There really shouldn’t be a situation where you can’t get your levels. Depending on what you do, you may end up with level 4/5 frank on point, DT Dante second and anchor Magneto or Magneto second and DT Dante anchor. If Magneto dies you get Dante coming in which is fairly safe and easily gets Frank to 4 or 5 as well. Sure if both die you’re in trouble but honestly I think the synergy alone makes it worthwhile to run anchor Frank. If not you can always just rawtag or dhc when dante is in so you get dante anchor and hope you don’t get punished. You still get level 4/5 from frank with dante behind him so it’s definitely workable. Level 4/5 Frank backed by disruptor and jam session gives me a marvel boner. I’d honestly be hard pressed to find a better team for Frank. Only one I can immediately think is Tasky/Dante/Frank which is honestly pretty strong too in my opinion. Triple Arrow might be Frank’s prefered projectile assist. Magneto is just much more versatile. What is you people’s take on this?
You could do pretty much the same stuff and then some with RR’s spitfire assist, and you’d get a much better leveler in the process. Log Trap as an option too.
Have you ever actually tried it? If you’re right, it’s impractically hard–like you either have one frame to do it or it’s impossible. I just labbed it for ~10 minutes setting it up in different ways or trying to do it off a raw Spitfire and wasn’t able to land it even once. Up close I set the computer to just mash jab as fast as possible and I actually couldn’t even frame trap it with Spitfire, which is weird…from farther away it worked better (just the frame trap) but obviously that doesn’t help tick throw setups. I realize you’re supposed to be right from what I know about Spitifre, but it just doesn’t seem to pan out in testing.
I agree that RR’s better for Frank than Cap, but in terms of this particular type of setup Shield Slash is infinitely better.
EDIT: If you have suggestions on what I might need to do to get Spitfire to act the way it should be acting, I’d appreciate it, cause I’d love to have those in the pocket.
EDIT2: Just to kind of follow up on this because I’m finding it bizarre that you’re not right about it…I did what might be a reliable visual test. I set the computer to All Guard and did a cr.H, slight delay, Spitfire call. Since cr.H+Spitfire is a frame trap (not a great one), the slight delay was necessary there. Cr.H makes the computer crouch when it blocks on this setting, so you get an easy way to visually recognize whether or not blockstun ends (they’ll stand up vs. frame traps). One thing I don’t know about the game is whether or not blockstun might compound in some way, though in my experience, if it does, assists don’t factor in. Regardless, just in case, we know that cr.H is -8 on block (lol), so if Frank recovers between the hits of Spitfire we know that the assist blockstun should be the only factor. Cr.H (slightttt delay) Spitfire makes the opponent crouch and keeps him crouching long enough for me to whiff an object toss over his head while the blockstun from Spitfire is still active. The opponent didn’t stand up at any point (until after the blockstun from the second hit of Spitfire) and I tried it multiple times. So…is there really not frame trap for Spitfire?
What I digested from your post about shield slash is “use it for left/right and tic throw setups.” While you may have to alter what normals and such you use for Spitfire, I know it’s capable of doing both functions. Other stuff too; Assist + OTG roundhouse (one of his 2 lows) can be a hit confirm in most situations since the spitfires will juggle on airborne opponents.
tic throw setups can be conceptualized via a million and one different ways. If I remember correctly I had one where if you did a slide at the right spacing it was difficult to jab out of the subsequent tic throw. Usually you’ll find variance though in seemingly similar setups, and they can always be ruined by push guarding.
I mean, granted; I was just assuming that you used Spitfire as an example because it was another assist with two staggered hits. Obviously you can tick and left/right with a lot of stuff, and it’s mostly going to get disrupted by pushblock.
The point was more that Shield Slash is unusual because it can force your opponent to have to tech two throws within a very small window of time, while also keeping them from hitting anything to mash out by forcing a block on the second hit. The push/pull is also unusually good for ambiguous left/right overheads, which helps compensate for the fact that the usual left/right with a roll is rarely if ever safe.
EDIT: Shield Slash also juggles from a standing Tools H (midscreen) or a jumping Tools H (corner). The latter is possible after knee drops as well. The point is less to argue for using Cap than to explore what he does for Frank.
I’m thinking Spencer/Dante/Frank or Zero/Dante/Frank. I know Spencer stuff, but would anyone be able to link me like a compendium of Zero stuff for Dante/Frank? So far all I know is lolcombo -> Rekkoha, DT -> Tag Frank, Knee Drop, smile
I mean I’m always meh about Spencer, but there’s a lot to be said for his leveling options obviously, and he does get dirty damage with Jam Session/Million Dollars.
I don’t know if there’s a Zero compendium, but IMO his best bet is to use the ADD sj.S rawtag (like Mags). I don’t play/know shit about Zero, but for some reason I think that he has to be in Sougenmu to do it, but that’s actually a really good thing. The biggest problem with Rekkoha/DT levels is that you don’t get Zero into Sougenmu, which I think is really necessary to justify using that green banana assist over something like EMD. If that’s a consistent method, it’d definitely be my go-to. If you do have to level 1 before that (unlike Mags) you wouldn’t necessarily be able to follow with tag --> Dante THC, and you might not have time to call Jam Session before the Snap. It’d depend on you building the right number of hits with Zero before the tag probably. That being said, Zero builds obscene meter, so you might still be able to THC lol.
Hi guys, I am currently running Nova/Frank/Ammy about a year ago, but I feel a little unconfortable with the team (not the characters). Nova level up frank in a great way but after that the only assist that helps frank in his neutral game is Ammy’s cold star, nova its just usefull in combos (the unblockable its not that easy to pull) anyway, long story short, I want to replace Nova and I am looking for suggestions, the team would be X/Frank/Ammy, so what characters do you think should be on this team?
I feel you on the search for a second neutral assist. I’m working on side teams to supplement my Nova/Frank/Dante because I’m looking for a little more in terms of assist options. It’s too bad, because Cent Rush is reallyyy hard to be for combos.
I would suggest Dante, but I tried running Dante/Frank/Ammy, and I just think Cold Star isn’t quite strong enough for Dante to justify the composition. It’d be great to have Jam Session, Cold Star, and two characters who were solid Frank levelers, but unfortunately I wouldn’t really recommend it.
Maybe Doom would work? You’d get point level tech, the option of either Plasma or Missiles, and Doom/Ammy for a ton of pocket shenanigans if Frank died. There’s a nice balance there, but I’d honestly prefer Plasma Beam over Missiles for Frank (people may or may not disagree with that), and there’s a way in which it’s redundant with Cold Star. I mean you’d have 3 horizontal assists counting Cart…seems a little excessive, even if they serve different functions. Still, Missiles could be possible if Frank can defend Doom well enough.
I was thinking on that team too, in the past I tried the doom DHC lvl up, but I can’t find the timing to DHC frank, mostly of the times the opponent techs in the air. But that’s a good idea, I’m gonna give it a try. Any other ideas are welcome
So using only Dante Jam Session assist and level 5 Frank I managed to get the following damages mid and full screen from a standing M:
1,011,800 and 1,068,100 respectively. Only Frank’s Tools super. A DHC to Dante kills every character.
The combos are as follows:
Corner: sMcMsH(Call Dante)QCF+L (dash) QCF+L cMsHxxQCF+L cMS sjMMHxxQCF+L MS jQCF+H QCB+L QCF+M QCF+MxxQCB+AA
Mid screen: sMcMsH(Call Dante) S+A (cross up) QCF+L cMsHxxQCF+L cMS sjMMHxxQCF+L MS jQCF+H QCB+L QCF+M QCF+MxxQCB+AA
Ohhh my nice idea on that conversion, I like it. Stolen
Btw, Magneto’s hard tag is much better than I thought it was…he can just do it anywhere whenever and always builds a bar off both Shopping Cart or Jam Session without having to push HSD too high to risk dropping the level-up. It’s pretty cool.
Not exactly; there’s a control issue in terms of being able to hit the required hits for chainsaws for a low damage, or being able to mitigate damage once you have the hits to ensure you get the snapshot before killing the opponent. At the beginning of the combo (which only works on hit confirms that keep the opponent grounded by the way) Vergil won’t have generated enough hits. By the time you’re doing photon Array >> Spiral Swords, you have to do at least one hit of the photon array and the full duration of spiral swords + lunar phase before you can raw tag. Not to mention if you’d be using spiral swords like the combo does in the beginning, you’d still need to have the two bars available to set up vergil’s raw tag into Frank (which make shortening the combo that much more difficult). While the combo is meant to optimize, nevertheless look at the damage; he breaks 1 mil before the second spiral swords is done.
With Vergil/Dante/Frank, I got Level 5 + 850k. But this is like 5 minutes of labbing. Both with using Shopping Cart during the intial Vergil combo, and while using Rapid Slash in the post tag Frank combo (the only difference in damage was 5k). It wouldn’t cover a Jam Session confirm, but still pretty neat.
…of course, there’s probably no reason to use this combo in place of a Lunar Phase combo, unless you’re trying to avoid killing, haha.
Yeah I agree with you within the situation you’re outlining, but the problem is more with the way we’re reading Cape’s post. I’m assuming what he was pointing to was the first hard tag, at which point Vergil has already generated 40 hits for 1 bar. Now you’re right that it only works off grounded confirms, but substituting Frank for Doom there would very likely make getting the last few hits for level 4 doable. I’m sure Fizzy was able to do that just by “using Rapid Slash in the post tag Frank combo.” I didn’t even consider keeping Doom in the mix (which, I agree, would be create a pretty bad dynamic) and was jumping straight to a Vergil/“Good Leveler”/Frank composition. With Dante, for example, you could just straight Snapshot+Jam Session into another Snapshot and you’d already be at 93 hits. Obviously it seems like you could do a lot more than that, but any Frank combo that added four hits would get you level 5 if Jam Session were involved. So really just (Tag Frank), s.S, sj.MMHS, Jam-it-out-with-pictures would technically be overdoing it. At the equivalent point in Doom’s combo, the damage is still at about 600k, so that doesn’t seem to be an issue–again, especially because Vergil only does about 430k pre-tag, and any double picture assist already gives you chainsaws.
“Stability” was more a claim about the tag-mechanic’s functionality in relation to character size/position (although this might not work in the corner I don’t play Vergil) and less statement about how specific its conditions are. The tech’s redundant to a certain extent, since, as Fizzy noted, Vergil already has hard tags a plenty, but actually seems to me to give more control over damage because it gets Frank in earlier than a longer Vergil combo (with less potential followup) would, and avoids Vergil’s later multi-hitting moves like Lunar Phase (whose damage contribution becomes harder to predict over time) in favor of Frank’s single hitting, level 1 normals and the ability to stop your combo at any point after the tag to opt for levels (or not start it at all).
Although I guess I could have just said “this” lol.
