Noobie here, I’ve recently been messing around with a new team lineup, and I wanted to get some opinions & suggestions on it. I have been a Viper point player for around a year now, and I always included Frank with various shells (Dante, Akuma, Nova, etc). After experimenting with numerous lineups, I’ve recently picked up Super Skrull. However, I found that I didn’t like having Skrull anchor even though his Tenderizer assist benefits both Viper and Frank greatly.
After playing a few hundred matches over the last few weeks, I surprisingly found that putting Frank on point with Skrull Tenderizer and Viper BK anchor got me the most wins and best performance overall. I think it’s because Viper BK assist has really been helping me level Frank early on in the game, since it’s an overhead and soft knock down, resulting in a high low that’s also safe on block. I also realized it frees up Tenderizer on incoming setups, as I can choose between crossing up or faking with BK assist and Frank’s slide also catches people trying to chicken guard on incoming. Overall, this has really helped me open opponents up with low-level Frank and capitalize with Tenderizer to get to level 3/4. After that, I’m able to throw a zombie and hard tag Viper in, allowing Frank to sit in the back and recover red health. In the event that Frank gets caught and lives, I can still tag in Viper and waste 2 bars to level Frank up. In other words, my whole style of play has shifted from Viper ToD to leveing Frank up and then bringing Viper back to point. Even if Frank does die, Viper with Tenderizer has unblockables and helps greatly in getting in, or Viper with lvl 3 Xfactor or meter holds her own as anchor.
That said, I wanted to get the community’s opinion on my game plan. I feel like it’s working well at my current level, but I’m not sure how it will fare against more experienced players and specific matchups. Can someone break down the pro’s and con’s of this lineup and hopefully give me a fresh perspective on what I should or shouldn’t be doing? Also, is there any tech with Frank/Viper or Viper/Frank that I should know? Any input would be greatly appreciated. Thank you!
It’s a matter of how you want to play the game. If you want to play casually, by all means put Frank on point. If your goal is to be competitive though Frank on point is an absolute no-no. To maximize the character effectively requires him to come in leveled, not try to get them himself.
Yeah, that’s the general feedback I’ve been getting. I guess I just need to up my Skrull game (currently still atrocious) and put him on point, Viper point doesn’t get me to level 4 and rather than wasting 2 meters to level Frank I’d rather just kill on touch. Is Viper basically incompatible with Frank?
Sorry, I realized I didn’t really make my intentions clear, but I am basically trying to find a viable way to keep Frank and Viper on the same team. As I mentioned above, my whole style of play until recently was focused on Viper point ToD. But with recent improvements in my execution, I’m able to do so with Viper solo, even without meter or xfactor. Because of that, I now feel I can develop more potential by putting Viper anchor and focusing on leveling Frank early-game. If Frank point is a no-no for more than casual game play down the line, then I now need to focus on finding a good point that can level Frank easily.
Yeah, in conclusion, I basically need to suck it up and start training on Skrull so I can play him on point. However, I now need to consider the danger of having Skrull die before I can level Frank. If Frank comes in at level 1 in that situation, I need to be able to level him to 4 in one touch with Viper BK assist. Any advice? Or is this lineup just not viable?
I know Cape uses Viper/Frank/Dante and I’m sure Viper/Dante/Frank would be viable too. I think part of the problem is Skrull really… Tenderizer is just too unreliable for double pictures to make Skrull worthwhile there. But I see Viper/Frank/Dante in your sig already. Is there a reason you really want Skrull on the team? I don’t play Viper, so maybe Tenderizer’s better for unblockables? Jam Session is definitely better for Frank, and to have Viper on point you really need a double picture assist. Tenderizer stops being one about 2 Marvel seconds into a combo
EDIT: Sorry for the terse response lol. On mobile atm. Just wondering about your direction.
Actually, I have no problem with double snap shot with Tenderizer?? That’s how I’ve been leveling Frank aside from Inferno. Maybe I’m not comprehending your statement correctly, could you please explain what you mean by that? Currently with Frank in front of Skrull at level one, upon touch I can reach level 3 and get a FFC setup at the end of my BnB. There’s also a higher execution combo I use offline that gets Frank 49 points off a double snap shot, and I’m fairly confident I will lab out a 50+ by this weekend.
As for Dante, this will sound silly but as a matter of personal preference I just don’t like playing Dante (though I have done so for an extended period of time). I felt it was time to move on, and searched for a character that would allow for double snap shot as well as help Viper out with unblockable setups and getting in. As an assist, Tenderizer benefits my Viper more – that’s not to say in general, but just for my style of play with Viper – and I personally feel it’s much easier to convert into combos compared to Jam Session (especially online). Of course, against certain match-ups like Morridoom I still prefer Jam Session, but that’s another story.
Haha no I was definitely exaggerating on the “2 Marvel seconds,” but really Tenderizer is a pretty unreliable assist at moderate to high hit stun. I’ll clarify just so it’s clear I wasn’t trying to be dick-ish When I played Skrull with Frank I had completely different follow-up combos for hit confirms that only differed by something like one j.M. It can definitely work, but it’s a pretty exact science, and it requires a lot of experimentation. But what I really meant was, it’s possible that you could do a Viper combo, DHC Frank in, and get a double picture with Tenderizer. It’s also possible that the same combo confirmed from Shopping Cart wouldn’t get you two pictures. I don’t know, but you’d have to see. Tenderizer’s really good for characters like Taskmaster who want a lockdown assist that lets the opponent drop to the ground for an unblockable. Jam Session is better for Frank because, for all intents and purposes, it’s immune to HSD. Also holding the opponent in the air is better for Frank than letting them drop to the ground (guard breaks/guard break-ish throw setups).
On the other hand, it doesn’t sound at all silly that you’d rather play Skrull. Dante can be a huge pain in the ass Also the way the assist interacts with Viper is equally important, and I respect that Tenderizer’s a better confirm for her. The more important point was that Dante might be able to fuse Viper and Frank more effectively because your team order wouldn’t be so important.
Skrull I see working less well, but, since you said you were more interested in playing the characters you like and taking things a little more casually I see no reason why the team wouldn’t work. And yeah, putting Skrull on point would probably land you chainsaws more often, it’s definitely worth trying IMO.
I lump Frank/viper into the same category as I do Morrigan/Frank and Zero/Frank; even if it works I’d never do it unless you can find ways to make their playstyles not come into conflict. Currently I don’t see that being possible/practical for all three of those pairings. While cape has presently demonstrated proof of concept for getting chainsaws with Viper on point (which I personally imagine has some sensitivity to hitstun decay but i could be wrong), it entails making sure you readily have 2 bars at the end of the combo. While many point characters are more effective with meter to burn than not, Viper is one where it’s a crux of her gameplan. EX seismo is too good to warrant not having it as an option to defer for leveling Frank. Same thing with Morrigan an Astral, whereas for Zero it makes no sense to stop off for leveling Frank when Zero can do all the killing and mixup and pressure by himself (and doesn’t benefit -that- strongly from shopping cart).
As I’ve said before though, if you can make it work you can make it work. I’ll always defer my opinion to sustained success, and certainly won’t claim I’m always right on all Frank-related matters (though I have confidence in my opinion). But on paper I really think the pairing is a disservice to both.
I really think the only time you should run Viper with Frank is if you have Spencer restand assist backing her up. That way you can set up a restand into focus attack and hard tag a crumple. While the proof of concept is there, you do severely limit yourself with Viper/Frank together. The only “practical” way is to TAC, and thats never good.
I mean, theoretically couldn’t you do it Justin Wong style where you have Wolverine (or C.Viper in this case) abuse Shopping Cart and have her get all the kills, and only use Spencer (or Dante) to level up Frank if for some reason you either hit and can’t kill or Viper dies?
I’m trying that out with my new team actually (Wolverine, Spencer, Frank). Found some good ways to level Frank with just Wolverine if I need to (no worries on spending X-factor if I need to) and also some pass throughs on Spencer. Got a combo that does 1,050,000 and gets me level 4 Frank.
The only issue with Viper, Dante, Frank is if they snap Dante. Then what do you do?
I did think of Magneto / Frank / Raccoon, but it likely would work best with an OTG assist. You can still likely use log trap to get them out of the corner (from a hyper grav loop) and then do the same magneto finisher.
That is interesting. Did you actually try it? (I won’t be able to get at my Xbox till tomorrow I think.) I’m wondering if the hypergrav setup contributes anything…as in does the height make it so that Survival Tools doesn’t whiff if you just do it off the ground at that distance? If you have to use an OTG assist to do it, then the problem is that you’re going to need Hypergrav assist to get level 4…and I don’t know how others feel about it, but I tend to think of that as a pure combo assist.
I wonder if there’s a way to call Shopping Cart after one Hypergrav Loop instead, dash back, do another hypergrav and use that finisher. You’d have to deal with HSD (and giving Frank enough cooldown time), but if it worked then you could set Mags to Disrupter and use the second assist to double picture. Wouldn’t work with Missiles, but it’d be a lot better for Frank if he gets leveled.
Also, I don’t see the Doom finger lasers DHC used often enough. Why does nobody run point Doom with Frank? Is it a matchup issue? I think something like Doom/Frank/Ammy could be a very strong team.
Since I’ve been messing with a lot of Dante/Frank teams, I’ve been thinking about what assists might be opened up that were previously (more or less) unavailable because of leveling tech–so like Mags’ Disruptor (a la Rampage/superscience) or Bolts of Balthak would be solid examples.
Those two show that Frank can get good beam/horizontal help, but I’m more wondering what experiences people have had pairing Frank with odd-ball-ish assists that might help his neutral game. So, for example, does something really fast like Cap’s Charging Star do anything for Frank that might be useful? Cape (if you see this), I saw you posted a level concept for Cap/Dante/Frank on youtube a while back. Did you ever find anything cool with it for Frank? Has anyone tried something like Hulk’s AA Gamma Charge? What about Wesker’s Samurai Edge for the low if running him meant point and not the all-too-common Noel Brown-esque anchor look?
Just curious to see if there were unusual assists that people liked to run with Frank that involved characters who didn’t level him that well by themselves. If anyone has ideas I’d love to hear them.
I will always advocate Frank + Dark Hole, but since I began playing Jam Session I’ve noticed how small it really is, haha. Still, getting a stray hit, falling into Dark Hole then leveling Frank off it is always great. It’s also really good as a combo extender.
Also, Rolling Buckler assist is really fun because it’s a horizontal assist for Roll shenanigans, and a low for unblockables.
I’ve been looking into some more interesting team combinations. You mentioned Cap/Dante/Frank. Cap has the hard tag setups, but could also lead the team using Jam Session and Cart mixups and then leveling Frank with Dante. If Dante gets snapped or killed as an assist, you can still level up Frank by comboing into Hyper Charging Star into BLS and X-Factor to picture and run a train on the opponents. This gives me the ideas that the Francor idea isnt horrible as you can use your X-factor in a non standard DHC to level up Frank. With that mindset I’m sure even characters like Hawykeye could get you a level 4 set up.
As for charging star, it raises the opponent off a picture well enough that you can do the BLS to relaunch from a corner ala this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FdjUV-6evRY
Yeah that’s more or less the model I was considering, since once Frank gets leveled I’d say the chance of using XFactor outside of simplifying the final ToD goes down enormously. The roll into Charging Star + BLS is definitely interesting, and I have a feeling there are a lot of characters that would get solid mileage out of that as well. I’ve never really used that method with anyone, but I could see it being reliable, and I’d imagine you’ve tested it on a lot of assists already.
I was writing about Cap because Charging Star is a kind of interesting assist to me–Shield Slash too for that matter. What is Shield Slash, like 5 durability and not a true block string between the hits? You might be able to force some interesting situations with it by just doing s.M+Cap. You could throw (into pick up with Jam Session) between the hits if they stayed on the ground, FFC if they up-backed, and might get something interesting with the second hit of Shield Slash if they teched the ground throw. It could be worth looking in to.
Just because I happened to have this left over, here’s a proof of concept for a Cap level done through Devil Trigger with respect to corner carry ability and HSD. Cap is especially good paired with this method because 1)it’s really easy to corner press with him and 2) he doesn’t rack up a lot of hitstun. It’s a really easy/dependable level, which is pretty cool. It also gets level 4 without the Jam Session pick-up if you let Charging Star hit a little more.
Hawkeye also seems to get similar options for leveling, but I was thinking in that situation it might not be worth using Hawkeye over a character like Taskmaster or Mags who offer comparable assists and more leveling options. I realize that wasn’t your point (it was more about leveling tech in general), but I figured I’d put in my 2 cents on the Hawkeye point.
I’d love to hear some of the other combinations you’ve been looking at. I’ll finally be able to lab/record again in a few days after a good bit of traveling, so I’m thinking about stuff I might be able to explore.
I was also thinking about recording some random leveling tech from the Level Strats pg.1 and posting/sending you links in case you got a chance to edit the thread. Does that interest you? I could also get you the originals via some cloud if you wanted to host them all on your youtube account or make one expressly for the thread (which might give some cool organizational options).
Sweet stuff. I like the idea of having someone that can DHC into BLS and then using your X-factor to get the level if its just Frank and that character (but your third being really good at leveling). A team like Magneto, Raccoon, Frank would work really well with that as well.
Cap is so great because he just plain doesn’t use bounces.
