Viper levels Frank off her QCB hyper into a whiffed tools of survival. Easy level 4 every time.
Do you ever actually dig for tech on a duo before you decide its bad?
And here I thought we had enough rapport where we’d discuss things rather than ask passive-aggressive questions like that. You want to take point-blank snapshots on a soft knockdown hyper? (which was the reason I disregarded the duo as soon as i saw that, regardless of whether or not you could get a snap off it) be my guest. Have fun when your opponent neutral techs and depending on the spacing/height/character gets either a raw punish, a free throw, techs in the air and gets a high or falls to the ground and gets a low. And in all those situations even if you’re “safe” you’re negative and in their face with likely no meter, which is pretty much the worst situation you want to be in. Frank’s close range game is terrible.
And beyond that, there’s big picture elements to consider. Viper is a strong enough character that if you’re going to run a team with her you’re better off building it around her rather than forcing her to detract by having to level up Frank. Needing 2 bars to level him severely cripples both your neutral game and combos by needing to avoid using EXs in order to finish off with two bars. Multiple characters aren’t a good idea to pair with Frank even with respectable level up options because it’ll either detract from the character too much or the given character gets little benefit to having Frank supplement their offense (Morrigan and Zero are the most obvious examples of this).
I’ve said it once, I said it more than once in the team building guide, and I’ll say it again here; finding a way to level up Frank is only the first step. Team synergy is huge in both what the team does for Frank in both his leveling and his neutral and still having him in turn contribute to the team. If taking time to focus on Frank dwarfs your team rather than amplify it, it’s not worth it no matter what your level up setup is.
True sorry 
One thing though…and I could be wrong about it…IIRC your Viper combo isn’t going to do 50 hits by itself. Since I don’t think you’ll be able to double picture with Burning Kick, that means you’ll only be able to level Frank to 4 in situations where Jam Session wasn’t active right before the combo started. I guess in those situations you might be able to negotiate your positioning in order to DHC into BLS?
The crumple hard tag’s also better than Zansam’s making it seem since you can always do a Frank combo and level with Dante’s THC. It’d probably be really easy to time Burning Kick so Viper was still in recovery when you were ready to THC.
Actually Dante builds a lot more meter without using his ground/wall bounces–especially with Iron Man’s assist available, but the “basic” (as Dante combos go) airplay combo builds a meter by itself before any bounces are used. The timing’s really tight I’ll admit, but meter/bounce-wise Frank is more likely to be able to s.S sj.S, etc. after a Dante combo. Today is actually the first time I’ve really tried that, so I’m pretty sure that, despite the tight timing, I could hit it pretty consistently with some practice. But it’s true that, as far as I can tell, that followup’s impossible for combos starting in the corner (where Dante requires a ground bounce to get Frank facing the right way).
On the other hand I’d say that that’s balanced out by the fact that, in the corner, Dante get get Frank to level four meterlessly via hardtag for a ToS into a number of things (lvl 5, lvl 4 + Million Dollars, lvl 4+ Devil Trigger into a reset). That’s pretty beastly, and it’s something that Nova/Skrull don’t have. Incidentally, I’m talking about a Skydance and not an Acid Rain hard tag, so it’s totally reliable. I only tried it a few times, but it’s entirely possible you can call Jam Session after the hard tag for the ToD + lvl 5. Maybe not, but I’m definitely gonna experiment with it more.
Unless you can get a level 3 focus attack (exceedingly unlikely), you’ll have to burn your initial bar in an ex thunder knuckle to even get a chance to raw tag. The hitstun will be higher since you’re raw tagging making a combo that builds a bar with Frank that much less likely, and having 3 bars to get it guaranteed is quite unlikely. Not to mention EX thunder is super unsafe and to make it safe you have to…burn more meter. It’d be more of a “make sure you know what to do in this uncommon situation” than a go-to.
Dante certainly has more potential for squeezing out some interesting/useful ways to let Frank do follow ups due to the fast startup of jam session and his gigantic toolbox, I’ll definitely give him that. That said even with all that he’ll struggle to allow the sheer amount of follow up you can get with Nova/Skrull as long as they have two bars before their air series. Skrull offers a ground chain, air series, Tools H Tools M x2; builds well over a bar and a half and does like…250k at minimum before Survival Techniques. Nova will typically offer at least an air series and a tools H Tools M (though with the right team setup/hit confirm I think my thor kill combo did like…300k at minimum scaling. Something stupid good), which will still get roughly a bar and…150ish I think. Air and Ground S minmum scale at like…20ish I think, Tools H 30, Tools M roughly 50 each. That’d be 170 in level 4; if you’re able to get that at the end of a Dante level up combo (which I doubt given how long Million Dollars takes), it’d put you in league of Nova/Skrull follow ups with more options for leveling and a stronger character.
Dante could very well be the best Frank point character. I personally think right now he’s good enough tools/options to be a top 3 Frank leveler for free, and it’s a matter of whether or not the theory can become consistent reality as to how high the ceiling is for those two. If it can all come together, then yeah he’s undeniably the best. Even if it doesn’t he’s still damn good.
Then that’s a legitimate point. As I said, I don’t pay Viper, I was just going off the “one hit combo raw tag” option you mentioned a few posts ago. I should have looked that up.
Yeah you’re right that both Nova and Skrull offer much longer followups, and, to be totally clear, I don’t think it’s important to establish the "best’ of the three; they’re all fantastic (although I have a personal aversion to Skrull/Tenderizer). I’m just interested in the argument about Dante’s cons since I haven’t really seen this discussed much before.
To maybe partly answer your question–if you can DHC into Frank from a 1-bar Dante combo without using Shopping Cart to confirm (definitely not always gonna happen), then you can follow up with your Jam Session + Camera s.S sj.S Tools H 2x Tools M combo. You’re right that Million Dollars is so long that you can never get anything more than s.S sj.S. It’s also a lot more difficult to time because you’re dealing with a DHC into a capture state as opposed to a hard knockdown. Your timing has to be damn good with the DHC to fit in Jam Session and from a lot of screen positions you have to dash into the s.S (less difficult than the DHC but it’s still more work). Still, it’s not much harder than the combo you’ve just done with Dante But even so that’s never going to compare to the 300k followup you’re talking about (which I also get with Nova/Frank/Dante if I didn’t confirm with Cart).
And of course that only works outside the corner, so there’s that as well. I think it’s important to note, though, that a Dante corner combo (besides the hard tag method I talked about above) can definitely build the 2 bars necessary for Frank to at least drop a ToS after the DHC–which is great for setting up the neutral game and also nets you a decent 800k+ damage.
Anyway I’m just kind of thinking aloud about it because I’ve only been working on the possibilities for a few days.
EDIT: Just to correct what I said, by the time you’re doing a Dante corner combo long enough to get a 3rd bar for a ToS you’re actually getting level 5 in one picture and, with the ToS, the combo I’m doing does 930k. Clearly that changes if I confirm off shopping cart or something, however. In that situation it’s clearly better to have Frank doing a long followup with his higher min scaling. Just trying to get a better grasp on the options here.
Couldn’t agree with you more on the unimportance of figuring out who’s best. They’re all very good and good enough. As for Dante and followups I’d just start with two bars, end them at various points and test the hit stun decay. I’d really be surprised if you could get double s with most combos though.the reason Dante can do such long combos is he has moves with fixed hit stun. I’d just think there wouldn’t be anything left for Frank beyond maybe a tools m or two post jam session. But again if you can make it work cool beans
Bah you’re totally right, after a full combo Jam Session just doesn’t launch them long enough for me to fit in a s.S after the Snapshot recovery. That’s my fault, I actually thought I’d connected the launcher when I was doing it yesterday, but I must be wrong about that.
Just messing with it for a little while the most meter I could squeeze out and still follow up was about .75 meters off a j.H cr.Ls.MH or ~.9 meters confirming off Unibeam + Teleport into j.H cr.Ls.MH. Obviously the damage is horrible off a Unibeam confirm, but the followup does set up lvl 4 + an FFC. Basically the limitation seems to be 1) No prop shedder whatsoever, which is pretty logical 2) 1 run of minimum clay pigeon hits. The HSD is soooo close to allowing 2 reps of clay pigeon, but it’s just not there. On the other hand, the limitations force me to do an easier combo–at least there’s that
It’s this: [Confirm] Stinger xx bc xx Volcano j.H Airplay j.H (land) s.S~H (Minimum/2 hits) Revolver~Fireworks xx Million Dollars
That lets you do Jam Session + Snapshot into s.S sj.S Tools H, etc. It does about 925k (non-Unibeam version) if you do 2x Tools M’s and a little more if you react to a j.H confirm and take out the cr.L.
Anyway there’s at least potential to build some meter and get a followup, but definitely not as good as I’d thought.
EDIT: Incidentally doing a really quick combo like just doing Million Dollars after the Beehive lets you do a slightly longer air series–sj.MHS.
Yeah sounds a lot like nova skrull then. Most of the Frank follow ups require you to start with a quarter or half a bar. The hit stun timer is likely universal
So, Frank West is and has been my best character since Ultimate’s launch, and I just absolutely love his play style. Only issue is I’m having a bit of a character crisis, as I’ve found that not only can my current team of Wolverine/Frank/Wesker really not handle strong zoners (Especially with the rise of Morrigans) but Wesker has no way of getting Frank to level 4 in one combo.
I’m debating between 3 teams right now, and wondering which one I should go towards. I really want my team to kind of focus around Frank.
Wolverine/Frank/Dante is helpful as my Wolverine is actually very strong as well, and the Dante assist gives him a way to cover the air. Downsides though are Wolverine has to exchange and use 2 meters for Frank to hit 4, and Dante anchor is questionable
Wolverine/Spencer/Frank gives me some neat tricks to get Frank to 4 off of two meters without exchanges, and ends up doing a ton of damage to whoever survives. Big problem is with Frank on anchor he typically won’t see as much play as other teams, and the B assist from Spencer (needed for Wolverine) doesn’t help Frank as much as A.
Finally, there’s Spencer/Frank/Vergil, which has a great feature of Dark Vergil, and both characters able to hard tag Frank in (Level ups off of 0/1 meter are always good, and can easily lead to double pictures with high damage) Issue is Spencer pressure isn’t as good as Wolverine with cart and once again I have no verticle coverage.
I know Bee’s Team of Spencer/Frank/Dante exists, but I’d rather do something a bit different. Thanks
I haven’t played this game in months; but I believe it still works.
Wesker can get Frank to 3/4 in one combo. Just end your combo in a Cobra Strike–> CANCEL INTO COUNTER HYPER IMMEDIATELY, DHC to ToS as they fall so it whiffs. Snap pic.
The hard-knockdown from Cobra Strike allows you to snap a pic. There’s also raw tag methods and other jazz.
Be creative.
Wolvy has some methods of leveling frank without a TAC. Check the level up methods thread. A few videos were there on the last few pages. If I recall, it was along the lines of uppercut into Fatal Claw, DHC to shopping cart so it pushes them towards the middle, picture before they fall out of the combo.
If you can figure out those, Wolvy/Frank/Dante is a pretty sick team.
So awesome, well done! Anything else you know of that would work for Wesker and Frank?
So uh…Zansam…
After trying a long list of anchors to fill out Dante/Frank/X, I’ve decided to put some actual work into Rocket Raccoon. Spitfire just works too well for the way Dante’s zoning brings opponents to the ground…It’s insane lol. I had high hopes for Ammy, but honestly Cold Star doesn’t quite cut it for Dante
So if you have any suggestions on people to watch, things to read, or stuff to think about as I’m learning RR–in reference either to Frank or to Raccoon himself–I’d really appreciate it (either here or via PM, as appropriate). If not, I’ll be workin on stuff on my end 
Also, I have to say Rocket Skates might be the game’s most entertaining way to move haha.
I’m getting out of work in about 10 mins so I don’t have time now, but I’ll give you a 101 on the Frank/RR shell when I get in tomorrow.
And while I’m usually better in taking the high road, in this instance I’m afraid I can’t resist but saying it:
I told you so.
Haha no mannn. I exhausted the possibilities trying to find another way, lol. When it comes down to it, though, I really like the idea of playing RR, I was just hoping to have a stronger comeback character. In the end, the assist options just look really hard to beat (for a character with that caliber leveling tech), and TBH I’m personally more motivated by his playstyle than Ammy’s even if I resisted
I also didn’t mess with Spitfire+Dante enough before. The spacing between the two shots gives Dante ridiculous options from a variety of ranges, and the assist’s speed lets you do basically any of Dante’s projectiles and still have multiple options (IAD/empties teleport/AD)–and from full screen that includes Hysteric (for SJ chars) which is >80 frames start to finish lol. I love the in-and-out game with Dante, so it’s just perfect for my play style.
And of course if Frank does s.M+Spitfire from Max range, the so-easy-it’s-blindfold-worthy relaunch combo with Jam Session kills Spencer, so there’s that too
And yeah that’d be absolutely fantastic if you get the chance, since you’re the resident expert on the shell. No hurry obviously if you don’t get time tomorrow. I’ll be looking forward to it
RR as a comeback character is actually pretty awesome. Level 3 is almost better than Gravity Squeeze because conversions.
Kusoru’s good to watch for comeback Raccoon play, and Tonosama with RR in second is incredible to watch, but there are some raccoon anchors on stream over here, I know Wolf Street and Combusted are anchorRRs that are easy enough to see on the west coast. I think I know a few more, but they elude me at the moment. Look for those guyz, the Japanese guys first as they are crazier rocket anchors.
So just because Zansam referenced a video he has coming out with some info on the X/X/Frank shell, I wanted to mention that, besides the hard tag characters like Vergil/Spidey/Spencer that came up in a previous comment, there’s a whole different class of characters that can level Frank from point using X/Dante/Frank. Really there are two subclasses of characters that work here, but I’ll condense it.
The criteria are:
1)Character corner presses
2)Character doesn’t use a wall bounce (there are a few exceptions to this)
3)Character has a hyper that leaves the opponent in a hard knockdown state/capture state launch (exceptions to #2 are also exceptions here)
The basic idea is that you do whatever combo, DHC into Devil Trigger, and have Dante use the wall bounce into Skydance side switch/hard knockdown to tag Frank in for a 2 meter level and a final order of Frank/X/Dante.
So take Taskmaster as an example: His BnB corner presses, he doesn’t use a ground or a wall bounce (ground is always good, wall is necessary here excluding the exceptions I’ve been vague about so far), and after a superjump series hard knockdown you can do either jumping hyper Down Arrows or jumping charged Down Arrows into hyper Parabolic Arrows and get a hard knockdown (a lot easier since it gives Dante a more generous link). So…do the Task combo, hyper, DHC into Devil Trigger, and either Cold Shower(x4) into Stinger xx bold move into Skydance or Volcano xx Beehive (dash back) s.S Stinger xx Bold Move into Skydance and hard tag Frank in.
Nova works similarly, and the same principle that lets you do long Frank followups applies. If you do the regular fly bnb and end in Cent Rush L xx hyper Nova Force, you get a pretty dirty follow up in Devil Trigger (assuming you can use Nova’s assist), but it works that way too). So, DHC Dante in, Volcano xx Beehive into Stinger(+Cent Rush) xxbcxx Volcano xx Beehive (dash back) s.S Stinger xx Bold Move into Skydance. If you used the ground bounce during the combo you can still just follow up with (Call Nova) Volcano xx Beehive straight into the backdash s.S, etc. If you want to get really stylish and you started the combo in the corner, you can actually do the truncated Nova combo (sj.MMH [fly] sj.LMH xx Hyper), DHC into Devil Trigger, and do s.S sj.H Skydance into Volcano xx Beehive (as if you were doing an SD ground bounce reset with dante), and then do the Stinger(+Cent Rush) stuff above. Not terribly practical (also HSD dependent in the sense that you have to DHC reallyyy fast), but it’s pretty hot haha.
So with this model characters like Magneto with capture state launch tech work. Assuming you can do a ~28 hit BnB with Magnus (Dante’s basic followup is 21 hits), you can do the hyper grav xx Magnetic Tempest, DHC into Devil Trigger and follow up with the goodness for the Frank hard tag.
The other subclass of characters that work like this are those with really long install hypers (is that what they’re called? ones that stay on the screen after a DHC anyway) like Dorm (Stalking Flare) and Trish (Round Harvest), and even Zero actually (whatever that level 1 is called). With these characters you DHC Dante in and then teleport to the top of the screen for either a j.S into grounded skydance reversal or a straight sj.Skydance (with the right vertical positioning) for a cornered hard tag to Frank. The Dorm point is kind of interesting since, just because it’s a Dorm point team, there’s always the possibility that you could come up with a way to charge/use Liberation as an assist…and Frank with Jam Session + a charged Liberation would probablyyyy be pretty broken Not that that’s likely, but it’s something to think about on the off chance.
Anyway, it’s definitely a method of running X/X/Frank to consider, since there are some options that leave you with a strong team if Frank dies. Task/Dante would be really good, for example. Dante/Magnus would be great, but unfortunately that’s not the order you’d be left with after the Frank tag, so that needs to be considered.
As far as the point character dying goes, if you want to run Frank on anchor I don’t think you could really do much better than Dante/Frank as far as leveling tech and assist synergy goes (Dante + Cart is pretty beastly) for opening up and getting chainsaws.
I’m gonna mess with it more with some other options, but it’s kind of cool.
EDIT: As a side note, I just found that since Dorm doesn’t use a ground bounce, if you can corner press with him (can you? I just don’t know lol) you can actually do Column (don’t know the name :P) into Chaotic Flame, DHC into DT and just straight Volcano xx Beehive into your shenanigans for the Frank hard tag. Just in reference to the Liberation assist, that’s interesting, because I don’t think there’s any way to link Stalking Flare without using spells up…Chaotic Flame could be use to tag Dorm out while preserving spells, however…
EDIT2: Just to amend something I said about Nova…for the more stylish/longer follow-up combo I posted above, it’s actually a lot more dependable (and possibly even more stylish) to DHC Dante in and do (Call Frank) Volcano TK Revolver Stinger(+Nova) xxbcxx Volcano xx Beehive (dash back) s.S, etc. I mean, when do Dante players ever get to use Revolver haha Anyway just posting that in case the HSD in the first version would make anyone skeptical.
Aaaand EDIT3: I take back what I said about Liberation…since the startups are listed as “variable” in the guide, I was under the impression that they retained their original startup speeds–so that even an empty Liberation would be like 15 frames once you’d used the spell. Butttt that doesn’t seem to be the case Oh well.
What’s the best thing to do if the opponent blocks your level 1 Frank + Ammy team super? I’ve tried things like slide cancelled into qcf.H overhead, but it’s chicken blocked pretty easily. Would going for a grab, then popping X-Factor off the camera shot be ideal?
What do you guys think of this team Viper/Frank/Iron Man?
The first thing you want to do is make them block high. You can do this at lv.1 with j.L, Knees, it’s tricky, but it works on normal size bodies and up. Once they’re blocking high you have a true mixup after the lightning of cr.H vs j.M, Knees vs Throw, the later two require X-Factor to convert properly, but the former is unsafe. If you let them remain crouch blocking during the super, then all they have to do is stay blocking low and tech, you can’t convert off a high. The j.M blows up the tech option, which then forces them to consider the upback option, which then gets beat by cr.H etc.
Obviously you can eyeball them during the super, you can tell pretty easily if someone is holding upback so you can skew your option towards that.