It’s screen based, both in terms of distance to the corner and possibly where the camera is centered. Might even run into issues with tag animations too; I’ve always been confident that not everybody comes in at the same speed but have had difficulty in finding a metric to test it. Even so it might be possible, though Frank’s contribution to the combo will be minimal since most of the attacks will be plungers. Allows for a greater chance of success at a tradeoff of being less likely to kill post-chainsaws. The everlasting struggle.
Fair point on the positioning, and I agree 100% on your feeling that characters come in differently (if I’m reading you right). At the very least, the animation that follows their tag seems to vary in duration, but yeah, I don’t know exactly how to test that. I do know that certain hard tag combos that work very well with Frank don’t let Dante even get into the startup frames of his moves before they’re dropped (disregarding the other problem of how slow Dante’s moves become active anyway). Since that’s off a hard tag hit, it’s hard to say whether the difference is in the incoming hitboxes (as in, Frank’s makes them go higher), or if it’s in the duration of the tag animation itself. That being said, my testing’s always found Frank a pretty generous tag–obviously except in those situations where someone like Spencer has a hitbox that’ll connect while Frank’s won’t. It seems like Fizzy got it to work with him, anyway.
If you ever hear about some concrete data on tags, I’d love it if you let me know.
It seems like a tool with at least some utility, but I agree about the follow-ups. That’s one of the reason’s I generally disregard Vergil/Frank anyway. If you use more common hard tag methods you’re using up a ground bounce that’d be better in Frank’s hands. I feel the same way about Spencer and the wall bounce, but that’s less of a problem if your plan is to hard tag and THC (which it might well not be). I’ve been messing with Magneto a lot, though, and he’s really impressing me with his balance of tag practicality and follow-up potential. The damage is great, but it’d be hard to say he tops Nova, because follow-ups generally build less meter (if you choose to THC, for example, you get no Tools M’s). Still, as far as hard tag characters go, I find it hard to argue for anyone else over him. He does lose to Spencer with respect to supplying his own double picture assist, though.
Bear in mind Frank doesn’t -have- to do damage. Part of the implication/theory/whatever about using say, Spencer is that Spencer can do all the damage he wants then bring Frank in at his leisure. Doom does fine damage at minimum, Vergil can do great damage until he runs out of meter, etc. Frank hard tagging in to do damage is by no means essential if the point character can already do the damage lifting too. that’s part of the harder-to-quantify aspect of characters like Nova or Dante with Frank is that he helps give them a boost in their damage that they can struggle to get otherwise (or rather would struggle for if TACs didn’t exist). In some situations Frank helps rough out the edges and in others he isn’t needed for it.
Good point. I’d add, though, that it’s even further complicated by the specific move that ends the combo. My primary concern when thinking about Frank followups is really more focused on damage than meter, because, whoever does the damage, ending your combo with Survival Tools is fairly advantageous (if they don’t die), and tremendously so if they do. In that respect, Spencer is a solid choice because he can do 1 hyper for significant damage, tag and leave Frank a bar to ST. Using Vergil, however, risks exactly what you pointed to–his “great damage until he runs out of meter”–at which point you’re at the mercy of your assist to keep the Snapshot safe. Obviously an optimal Frank level would kill and allow different ways of killing depending on the amount of damage you needed to do or avoid doing; but it would also always let Frank corner press and kill with Survival Tools to maximize the incoming mixup. That’s really the main reason that I like Nova so much there. Given a little meter at full screen, or only 1 bar from midscreen or in the corner, he can pretty much always get Frank that extra bar during the follow-up or at the very least set up a Tools M for a wall bounce and some nice spacing. Which is to say, the way I think about it is less about how to get chainsaws while doing damage–an area that’s had a tremendous amount of development already–and more the exact state that you’re left in once you already have the chainsaws.
But obviously there are always good possibilities with Spencer and Vergil. I think they’re very solid characters for leveling Frank (though IMO their assists are decent and truly awful for Frank respectively), and I’m sure people who actually use them see more complex leveling methods than I do currently.
EDIT: As far as that aside at the end goes, I grant that I may not give Grapple quite enough credit as an assist, but I don’t find it particularly inspiring. Rapid Slash does make me shudder, though…especially when I hear about people anchoring Vergil for Frank. I’ve tried and failed to imagine a worse assist for level 1 Frank, and it’s something to consider when snaps are always possible.
So, I’ve given in. I wanna drop Nova, but want to keep the ?/Frank/Dante team setup. I’ve been looking into Vergil. He’s so good with the team, it’s ridiculous that I did not play Vergil seriously until now.
But, I need some help. I know Vergil level up methods, but I don’t know his combos that can get Frank to ALWAYS get lvl 4 through a raw tag or dimensional slash super from anywhere on the screen.
Spiral Sword - Lunar phase - Raw Tag is not high enough for 50 hit combo and I can’t get a double snapshot with jam session, plus it don’t work on big characters. His round trip in the corner raw tag is corner only. And dimensional slash is RNG so I can’t rely on it too much.
Haha nooo man, the Nova/Frank/Dante life support’s failing. But, that aside, I have to make the obligatory attempt to win you over to the burgeoning X/Dante/Frank crew. Right now Cape’s working on Wolverine, Fizzy’s working on Zero (having already put in the work on Dorm there), and I’m working on Magnus and there seems to be a lot of potential all around. Just saying 
But Vergil’s obviously a uhh…good character, and I’m sure you can make that work if you’re enjoying him. I don’t know a lot about his level-up methods, but, from what I do know, you don’t want to think of him as a hard tag character that’s going to level you meterlessly. The deal is more or less that a short combo + one rep of Sword Loops into a tag is going to get you above 50 hits, and two reps will get you above 100. There are things you can do to bolster that (like doing wall bounce/teleport and calling Frank while Round Trip hits), but for the most part that’d be the go-to. I’m pretty sure 3 sword loops would do impractically high damage, and 2 is probably already pushing it a little bit. The ground bounce on Lunar Phase is pretty high as well, so there’s a good chance you can tag Frank in and get a double picture with Jam Session.
You could also do a fairly simple, meterless Vergil combo, tag in Frank, and do Snapshot, Survival Tools xx DT, Tag Frank back in, Call Jam Session, Snapshot x2. If you did that you’d only need a 10-hit Vergil combo to get 50 hits. I’m pretty sure Lunar Phase is 8 hits, so cr.LM Lunar Phase (tag) is already level 4 if you have Jam Session available (and a little meter). To be clear, I have absolutely no idea whether or not that actually links, but it’s just an example of how little work you’d have to put in.
But really you’d want to be doing some sword loops I guess.
I found the wall bouncing stinger into round trip and hard tag in the corner to be very effective. Just set up a sword loop to the corner and then hit them with that. Should get you 50 hits easy. If you run it that way, you can do Vergil, Dante, Frank which could be very nasty.
I’m really enjoying Vergil/Frank/Dante, because of the THC FOLLOW MY LEAD with Frank for 2 meters. I basically get to always stay on somebody even when they zone. Which is Frank biggest weakness. Plus, I like anchor Dante.
Vergil/Frank/Dante
Zero/Frank/Dante
Mags/Frank/Dante
Nova/Frank/Dante
Spence/Frank/Dante
Wolvie/Frank/Dante
Joe/Frank/Dante
MODOK/Frank/Dante
Spidey/Frank/Dante
Deadpool/Frank/Dante
Jill/Frank/Dante
Are those the best teams with the Frank/Dante shell?
Rocket Racoon/Frank/Dante is really strong as well. Doom/Frank/Dante would be strong with respect to leveling/assists, but maybe his point game isn’t strong enough to justify his addition.
Those are good groupings, but some of them are much better with a Dante/Frank Shell.
In reference to Frank/Dante … Just based on the practicality of the leveling tech, I’d eliminate Zero, Wolverine, and Joe for sure. I’d feel uncomfortable with Jill, Deadpool, and MODOK, but maybe wouldn’t eliminate them. Magneto is also much more versatile with Dante/Frank in the back because you have more control over your damage output during leveling.
You have to factor in assists as well when you’re talking about “best teams.” That’d eliminate a few of them. My personal top 3 assists there would be Disruptor (neutral), Cent Rush (combo), and Quick Work (balance between combo and neutral), although Hadengeki seems good with Sougenmu active. Since I’m suggesting RR, Spitfire makes that list. Obviously Log Trap’s good too, but I’d rather pair Spitfire with Jam Session.
I’d say probably Vergil, RR, Nova, and Spencer are my votes there (in no particular order).
EDIT: If you can make point Doom work, I’d add him to that final list.
I’ve recently been a fan of Haggar/Dante/Frank. I think it’s fairly viable, despite how lackluster Jam Session is for Haggar. Any hit can lead into either Pipe or Rapid Fire Fist to raw tag in Frank, and you use an assist to make a combo get you to Level 4. It’s pretty cool, and you get a Lariat assist!
Hey guys,
What’s a good incoming setup for Frank with Nova’s Centurion Rush assist?
Also, can a team like Nova/Spencer/Frank work, or is it too front-loaded?
Try for a meaty j.S+Nova vs. incoming.
If they pushblock, FFC.
If they get hit, Tools L as soon as you land and IIRC Nova will hit during the move and you can continue with grounded Tools L loops into a relaunch and you’ll have your ground bounce back.
If they just block, you can 1) Land, wait, and go for an unblockable if you think they’ll sit there and take it. 2) Roll for a left/right with Nova’s assist. 3) Forward throw as soon as they land.
If they just block and up-back as soon as they land, you can either airthrow or FFC.
And Nova/Spencer/Frank isn’t that bad, but it lacks a few things. First, ideally you’re going to level through Nova, so you’re going to end up with Frank/Nova/Spencer, and that’s a pretty bad composition (Nova with no good neutral assist and Spencer anchor). Second, Frank is most dangerous with good neutral assists, and neither Cent Rush nor Grapple is going to maximize his potential. He can use them, but Cent Rush is a pretty risk assist to use in neutral with Frank, and Grapple is pretty specialized. They’re both good for his combos, though, so your damage would be solid at least.
EDIT: That being said, Nova/Spencer/Frank is great for leveling up if you’re just looking at available tech. Even so, DHC’ing from Nova into Spencer and then doing an 80k to tag Frank in is probably going to limit your chances to level by doing way too much damage.
Thanks for this.
But what’s the timing? Do you j.S as soon as they jump out?
Ideally you’d have it become active just when they come out so it’s a legitimate meaty attack. j.S is only active for 4 frames, so you can’t really throw it out early and let them hop into it. You just have to practice the timing on the incoming depending on how you killed them (or if you snapped). So killing with Survival Tools means you’re more or less going to count to three fairly slowly and then jump S. Killing any other way you’re counting to ~2. Snaps you have about a second. Obviously the numbers depend on how fast you personally count it, so just test the three situations and get a system that lets you measure ~how long you have to wait.
Also, if you kill with Survival Tools (gives you the best incoming options), you could probably dash back 3 times, let out an L Walker, dash forward, call Nova, and roll as they come in. The Walker + Roll will give you a left/right. If they block that, they’ll probably land right about the time that Nova’s hitting and you can cr.H for an unblockable. That setup would be best vs. characters with no air mobility, because an air dash or a double jump would make it pretty easy to get out of and free to happy birthdays depending on their options.
You could mess with throwing out the Walker, dashing up, and doing (Call Nova) + meaty Snapshot (active for 10 frames, so you can nail the timing pretty easily with a little practice). If they block the Snapshot, they’re gonna drop into the Walker and they timing might well force them to land right before Nova hits for the unblockable. I’ve never tried that, though, so you’d have to mess with it. You’d also have to make sure that you could convert if the Snapshot actually hit, which I’d assume the combination of the Walker and Cent Rush would let you do in one way or another. Pushblocking might destroy that setup really easily, though. It’d depend on the relationship between their extra frames in the air (from pushblock) and Cent Rush.
Interestingly enough I actually tried out that team for a bit. It has some great tech in it.
You can either run the strong point and then level Frank with Spencer setups or you can level through spencer by setting up for UVG into hard tag on Frank. I actually ran it with restand assist and found some combos with Frank that got to level 4 (with him on point) and only the Spencer assist.
How’s Wolvie frank Dante? (Better or as good as Spencer/Frank/Te? Since I already somewhat have that team)
I wanna try out some point chars with actual quick buttonssss, and just wanted to try out Wolv cause he’s quick to learn despite me having some sort of hate for him. But, I don’t want it to be a mimic team so I need to put Jam session in there. Im just having trouble deciding my second or third character. Don’t want Doom.
Cape’s been working on Wolvy/Dante/Frank, which has the benefit of giving easier levels with Wolverine. You can do a full corner-to-corner combo and DHC into DT for a Skydance hard knockdown/Frank tag and the final order is Frank/Wolverine/Dante, which is what you’d want. If Wolverine dies, any Dante confirm’ll give you chainsaws and you don’t have to deal with using level 1 Frank (theoretically). Cape can give you the full notation on what he’s using, but you can rack up a lot of HSD with Wolverine and still have enough to set up Skydance.
IMO Wolvy/Frank/Dante wouldn’t be great for leveling, though. Spencer has a lot more leveling options as a point (or anchor) character, and Wolverine kind of needs Dante in the middle to streamline things.
I’ve been playing Tron/Frank/Sent for a long time now but as much as I love these 3 Tron is simply really weak on her own and the team struggles with zoning…really bad.
I’ve tried a variant on Amaterasu/Frank/Shuma along with Haggar/Frank/Shuma though I’m having a harder time DHCing from Haggar to give Frank levels. Any thoughts?
IMO, Haggar/Frank/Shuma sounds pretty workable to me. Whenever I mess with Haggar/Frank all I ever do is hit confirm into the pipe and raw tag. I’m sure there’s a way to extend the ensuing combo with Mystic Ray/Lariat to get the hits up enough for a Level 4. Or if you’re feeling creative you can try Pipe -> Tag Shuma, combo, Mystic Stare -> Tag Frank, Snapshot.