Group Photo Ops- The Frank West Team Building Thread

Franchor I like if the first and second guys can level up frank off a touch. Better yet is that either the first of second have some kind of projectile assist to allow Frank roll crossups and preventing him from being zoned hard. As Cape said, once Frank is out, he’ll be zoned with your current team, but I would not worry about that at all. You have Dante with cart if you need to, as well as Spencer/cart, they can get close, and once Frank gets close himself (a lot of times thanks to his setups he’s already right in their face), he’s fine, he has rolls and jam session, no one’s getting out. Keep the team in that position, looks really solid.

But yeah, Dante has a method of levelling Frank by himself, and Spencer has rawtag stuff if I’m not mistaken. It’s a great team. I’m curious as to what assist you have for Spencer, as I have yet to explore Frank’s combo potential using spencer assist aside from the obvious pic and assisted relaunch stuff he has in level 1.

What do y’all think is the optimal 3rd when running Nova/Frank? For a long time I ran Arthur on anchor for the bullshit comeback potential, Frank getting levels off any hit with his THC, and of course Daggers but my local scene got really tired of being bodied by the little dude and seriously figured him out to the point I dropped him recently for Amaterasu.

The Dog has been working out fairly well for me filling quite a few different roles (combo extension, incoming mixups, lockdown for frank chip, THC for Frank levels, etc.) but I’m not a huge fan of how her assist plays in the neutral game before I’ve leveled Frank, and this setup leaves me without a good full-screen option for either Nova or Frank meaning I have to work my ass off to stay in because I’m getting zoned to hell as soon as they force me out. I think I’ve been spoiled by how good Arthur’s Daggers are on that front.

I understand the potential in Nova/Vergil/Frank but just can’t get into playing Vergil. Any thoughts on other candidates or do you think I’m doing the right thing learning Doggy?

I dropped Hawkeye for Amaterasu back in June and it’s honestly the best decision I made, I love her in this team. Sure Frank has a bit of a hard team full screen but you just have to play really patiently and if you get one opening, bam, level 5, it’s awesome. And if Frank dies you always have the possibility of an Ammy comeback, which is always a factor. I think you’d do well to keep Ammy there, it’s been working out for me.

[media=youtube]gB6NaILuj0U[/media]

I love this video, but it can get screwed up if you have 3 bars or more. Do you know which characters have hypers that won’t screw this up (at least not the first camera shot)? I’ve only tried:

  • Spencer bionic arm, which sometimes causes the opponent to bounce awkwardly.
  • Doom’s finger lasers will screw it up midscreen, but not the corner.

Theory fighting (haven’t tried out):

  • hypers with long durations should work without issue (Dante)
  • Hawkeye’s gimlet is really quick, and doesn’t cause you to go twisting in the air like bionic arm

A character who is also a good anchor, and has a good assist for Frank would probably be the best choice.

Doom or Dante are probably your other two options. Ammy is for sure a good option though.

What do you guys think are the best Frank teams? Order, assists, reasons.

I personally think:
Spencer (H. Grapple), Dante (Jam Session), Frank (Cart)
This team has hard tag or DHC setups from Spencer (DHC through Dante) and THC or DHC from Dante plus some amazing neutral assists to support Spencer getting in. Jam Session and Grapple give two photos overall and cart helps a good deal with close neutral.

Nova (Centurion), Frank (Cart), Sentinel (Drones)
Nova of course has a DHC into Frank and an assist for multiple pictures. Sentinel drones is amazing on neutral for mixups with both and also helps Frank extend off shopping carts for longer combos, more damage, and more pictures.

What do you guys think?

Nova (Centurion), Frank (Cart), Amaterasu (Cold Star)
You can also easily have it as Nova/Ammy/Frank or Ammy/Frank/Nova (heck even Frank/Ammy/Nova works wonders but I suppose you don’t want Frank on point at level 1). I just think this is the best because any hit will probably lead to level 5 guaranteed, not even level 4.

I would write a giant post on why I think this is one of the best Frank teams but I wrote one a few weeks ago so I’ll just quote it here due to laziness. UMVC3 SRK Tier List/Theory Discussion READ FIRST PAGE!

I use Haggar/Spencer/Frank. Similar to Spencer/Dante/Frank, but I simply prefer Lariat to Jam Session (and I can’t play Dante for shit). Probably not as optimal, but RFF into hard tag is so good (when they don’t drop out).

Can you get a raw tag off of Wright’s s.:h:? It’s kinda like a ground bounce+hard knockdown, but it takes them so far away unless it’s the corner.

Optimal Frank team is a difficult question to answer because there’s a lot of factors that come into play. There’s several templates you can have, different ideas behind it, different situations you’ll find yourself in, etc. I personally favor the Point/Frank/Anchor archtype, and for that you want:

1 a Strong, versatile point character who can reliably get the first hit. Has a simple and effective way to level Frank to 4-5, and ideally an assist that benefits Frank in some way

2 an anchor that provides an assist for Frank’s neutral game (as both a backup in case he gets stuck in level 1, and then to round out his weaknesses in level 4-5), has a backup plan for leveling him, and can cleanup with X factor.

Modifying these templates can be done but come with various strengths and weaknesses. Putting Wolverine on point for example usually means TAC reliance (yes, I know about BLSing off Fatal claw, people still TAC) but while it comes at the risk of them countering it, it usually means the character is dead and frank is leveled if it works; greater risk for potentially greater payoff.

Following this template, I’d say by far and away the best character for point Frank is Dante. strong neutral game, plenty of practical ways to level Frank, and a great assist to back up Frank to boot. Nova’s a strong pick as well, with Nova force being an easy way to get to 4, Centurion M being a great assist, and a strong neutral game (he benefits a lot from shopping cart as well). Skrull’s good too, though stone smite/tenderizer don’t aid Frank that much.

There’s a couple characters that do the job well but I see little reason to pair them with Frank. Zero’s a good example; He doesn’t really rely on high low from a lockdown assist (he just needs something that puts them in blockstun for him to do left/right), so shopping cart doesn’t benefit him much. More importantly, he kills on any touch; what does he need chainsaws backing him up for? Spencer benefits from cart more than Zero, but the same question remains; why do you need Frank when you have Spencer? Vergil is along a similar vein, but more importantly (to me at least), Frank and Vergil are fairly similar characters in their roles; I’ve never seen much need for having both of them on a team. Makes me think of doing 2v2s in WoW with double rogues; if it was a good matchup, it got even better. If it was a bad matchup, you got bodied hard.

Lots of other point characters have options, but they’re lacking in some respect or they don’t have exposure. Spidey’s a good example; plenty of raw tag opportunities, but nobody really pairs the two (that said spidey combos don’t build much hits and hits assists are junk-tier).

The anchor’s trickier. Backup level up plans for Frank, neutral game so he has at least a chance in level 1, and still comeback potential. There’s really nobody who fully fits this bill; Dante’s close but the biggest problem is if you’re using jam session, you have no presence beyond midscreen except zombies (and anybody with a horizontal projectile can hit you out of startup easily). Arthur fits the bill on paper, but…it’s Arthur. Ammy’s good, but again, coldstar doesn’t reach too far. Drones are great but sentinel has no level up back up plan. Vergil’s got the comeback and level up options down, but frank can’t utilize rapid slash that well. I personally use Rocket Raccoon, which has all the neutral game and Frank level up options you could as for, but man does his comeback potential suck. If you’re anything except a 1v1 or a 2v1 with x factor + ample meter, you’re usually in deep shit. Long and short of it, you’re not going to get everything and have to decide where you want to make your sacrifice.

Regarding the specific team of Spencer/Frank/Dante, in some lights I think it’s great whereas in others I find it lackluster. Bee is the greatest example to view for it, and my biggest problem with the way he plays it is his combos. He’s got two powerhouses in spencer and chainsaw frank, yet his damage always seems lackluster. If he was killing and leveling on his first touch, and building two bars and killing with Frank confirms, man would it be scary. I see the potential, but I haven’t seen it put into practice. The other problem is if Spencer dies before getting Frank leveled, playing keepaway against Frank/Dante isn’t hard at all. Gotta respect the THC, and that’s about it. This is offset by Spencer being 1.05 mil health, but still, depending on your team you can either kill him on a touch or I’d argue burn x factor to kill spencer then wear the rest of the team down by attrition. There’s a lot of pieces in that team that can come together for great results (Object toss + spencer alpha assist is a full screen hit confirm for example, love that shit), but I can see ways to dismantle it pretty easily. Still, Dante and Spencer are strong characters, that helps a lot.

Nova/Frank/Sentinel has no backup plan. You’re putting all your hopes into Nova getting first touch. That doesn’t happen and you’re in pretty deep shit. Frank already has plenty of risk/reward going for him, I’d rather try to minimize that than amplify that.

Best team for that template is probably Nova/Frank/Something or Dante/Frank/Something, Just haven’t figured out what the something is yet.

I guess my Phoenix Wright/Frank West/Akuma team is Point/Frank/Anchor, but once I get Turnabout it’s Frank/Assist/Anchor

My Haggar/Spencer/Frank is more Assist/Assist/Frank, I guess. Might not be totally optimal.

Actually, can you DHC from Blue Light Special into RFF? Maybe you can, but I’m not sure…

Sentinel cannot level up Frank? Are you kidding? Have you not been paying attention to ANY of the videos I post?

I have found so much tech with those two, I’ll make a video of it here shortly (was hitting it in tourney last night too)

Speaking of vids, that Akuma tech not work out?

Spencer/Dante/Frank and Vergil/Dante/Frank are my two current theories on optimal Frank teams.

Spencer team - Watch Bee, think about how cheap that team is, and then pay attention to things like how bad his Spencer is, and how unoptimised his Frank combos are and then tremble in terror. Bee has set the groundwork, but this team has heights to reach yet. The TACs can go, which removes the only reason to have Frank 2nd on a hard tag setup team, optimised Spencer combos into UVG hard tag will get to Lv.4 meterless comfortably.

Vergil team. You get to play Vergil/Dante, any Vergil touch gets Frank to 5, and if you can’t touch people with Vergil and this team, you’re playing the wrong game. Optimal Plan gives you Frank/Jam Session/Vergil Anchor, Backup plan gives you Dante/Cart and still a 1 touch level 5. Downside is there’s a small possibility of getting anchor Level 1 Frank, but only if you get your first two characters wrecked, and i don’t believe factoring in getting wrecked to team synergy as a high priority.

Sottle, I have considered both teams and they are both excellent. Another good option is Spencer (S. Grapple), Vergil (Rapid Slash), Frank (Cart)

Good space control to help Spencer get in and hard tag setups (or DHCs) with both characters gives tons of options to level Frank. Then you have two strong point characters and one of the best anchors in the game. Since the team also does not need to spend much meter to level Frank you should be doing double or triple DHCs constantly to kill everyone.

That team doesn’t have a top tier assist for Frank though, i feel like if you get Lv.5 Frank/Drones or Lv.5 Frank/Session then you win (in theory) and that should be the aim of an optimal Frank team.

If you want to try to bank on getting BLS and HSF to properly put yourself into spots where you can snap/double snap, be my guest. Not to mention Frank is severly lacking in ways to protect sentinel at level 1.

I’d still argue either on either of those teams Frank won’t have much to assist him on runaway/full screen. But who knows, walk forward + jam session might be enough.

I don’t think you’re keeping out Frank for free if you literally can’t press assist once your opponent has 2 bars. (Maybe only Astral Vision)

Thanks for covering this as I’m returning back to Frank with Bee’s team (since I can’t adjust to Nova), I’ve used Spencer with anchor Dante for so long without realising that they fit pretty well with Frank

I did also notice about the combos though, it seems like (with Frank in particular), the stuff he’s doing is pretty sub-optimal(?), I’ve only used this team for a day in Training so I don’t know about the full possibilities. The levelling seems pretty efficient and like you said, they are really good characters. I think with Frank teams there is always gonna be a hole somewhere due to Frank’s levelling, usually a case of teams losing out on damage and/or meter, I’m a Frank noob though so maybe I’m wrong

The thing about Frank combos (I said this in the combo thread already, but I’ll say it again for emphasis) is they’re less about your hit confirm and more about how you manage your ground/wallbounces and your hitstun decay. There are -so- many different ways you can mix and match components of his combos based on what level of hitstun decay you’re at and where you are (ground, air, super jump etc). He gets to minimum quickly, so it’s about maximizing your chainsaws (M, H, Tools M and Tools l) in conjunction with finding the best way to use bounces. That’s it; there’s very few instances where a higher level of execution wlll result in a greater Frank combo; more often it’s knowing what works at what level of hitstun decay to squeeze in that extra chainsaw or two. And there’s plenty of places to do it; during an air series, after an early ground bounce, or at the end of a combo with an assist.