Yeah, our detailed change list is quite small when you take out the nerfs and bug fixes…
Out of 8 changes, only 4 of them really have the potential to help the character and only 2 of those are considered good. The other 2 changes (cr. mp and lp palm) we all expected more, but are just glad to get something better than what he has now.
**
Gouken**
*Bug Fix-
-Kongoshin no longer activated with 464+P input
-Back Throw untechable timing period now tech-able (could be a nerf to some… just no more free back throws that should have been teched anyway)
NERF-
-Hyakki Gosai stun reduced from 200 to 160
*
Good Fix-
-EX Tatsumaki Gorasen start-up reduced from 7F to 5F; invincibility time reduced from 8F to 6F; hitbox expanded downward and forward
-Crouching LP start-up reduced from 4F to 3F
Could have been better but I welcome the change-
-L Senkugoshoha forward movement slightly increased
-Crouching MP changed from +1 to +3 on hit
**Not really good- but whatever- **
-Far Standing LK now Special- and EX Focus-, EX Red Focus- and Super Combo-cancellable
s.lk -> l. palm is a reasonably safe “focus attack check” against characters like Cody, Dudley, and so forth who have scary focus attacks but don’t have 4-frame long-range punishes, due to the pushback on l.palm.
Like, you probably don’t wanna do that vs. Ken or Cammy, but it will have its match-up specific uses I’d imagine. For that reason I’m happy to have it.
If they are going to make the backthrow easily teched as a normal throw tech then they might was well make the back throw 3fr and not keep it at 5 frames to tech. The backthrow will be sooooo easily teched it would probably be really useless for mixups but would be used as a punish instead.
I was thinking, more specifically, for stuffing attacks and buffering.
For instance, st.lk stuffs ryu c.mk pretty handily, if you were to throw out st.lk and buffer palm, and ryu throws out c.mk it would be nice to stuff it and get the palm to combo as well.
Let’s not pretend we don’t get more damage from the backthrow. I think considering how it works, especially considering the fact that we can get ultra from it, having a longer techable window is reasonable.
best would be to normalize the b.throw start up to 3fr, but grant a slightly longer tech window. there are already so many ways to avoid or beat throws; no need to make steange system exceptions…
Going into the changes how many characters were actually considered obviously weak? Gen? maybe Hakan? Its not like they had to overhaul everybody yet they still did so little with Gouken.
I mean isn’t this why they chose Combofiend to oversee the changes its not like he didn’t know what Goukens handicaps were. Then insult to injury hand pick a character that is sure to open up Gouken like a can of worms.
Yes…with maybe slightly extended range. He is only big character in the game without a command throw besides Sagat. Sagat has excellent throw range so he is fine.
It’s fair to say that all or most of Gouken’s handicaps were actually addressed.
Whether or not they were addressed to a significant enough degree is probably a better discussion, but we did get jab combos, we did get more ways to open up crouching opponents, we did get a real reversal, we did get a few new ways to deal with focus attacks, we got a few new ways to weather rush-down pressure. It is fair to say not many of our weaknesses were actually eliminated, but rather reduced in severity to varying degrees, which is probably the design intent anyway. Gouken’s weaknesses exist by design, they aren’t accidents. We aren’t supposed to be amazing in mid-range footsies and we are supposed to be a little bit disadvantaged on wake-up. That stuff comes with the territory of being a primarily zoning-oriented character.
The issue in my opinion was that Gouken was incomplete as a zoner, though. He’s the only one without a mid-range focus breaker (either in the form of a 2-hit instant hadoken or anything else) or a simple 2-hit, safe normal-to-special combo (hands, soul spiral, hadoken, whatever) to keep dudes out. On the other hand, he has probably more damage potential than any other zoner, but the issues with that are well-documented.
So they’ve hybridized him for Ultra a little bit by improving his footsies somewhat and giving him ways to get into better offensive ground pressure, and you’re free to draw your own conclusions as to what that might mean. But I don’t think it’s fair to see they didn’t address his handicaps at all.
i honestly think gouken’s footsies / ground game is ok:
dat sweep, although dwu will add another 50/50 layer, but still possible to stay safe when applying safe jumps
cr.lk, far.lk which create sort of a mid range frame trap on hit
max range far.mk is a good walk-in stopper (could use 1 more active frame though)
dat far.hp wall leading to combos on late frame hit or counter
far.mp for close counter hit fishing particularly after close mp on block
numerous, situational anti air normals for each situation plus extatsu
good anti fireball options with hp senku and u2, though need to be set up and buffered
a good f.throw complementing his zoning and providing set ups
and finally a small jab hit confirm in shot away specials (super and maybe fadc or corner ultra)
a second max dmg hit confirm (or mix up) with close mp after safe jump or fierce jump in
5fr extatu as reversal or raw punish, maybe even max range sweeps on gouken block <-5 will be deadly in ultra
they only dropped the ball with a reliable mid range 2-1, cr.mp x hado fadc or cr/far.lk x lp senku due to ranges. at least cr.mp x hado will be slightly more difficult to punish. and os tech cr.mk remains unfortunately unadressed. kongo could still use a 2-zone concept or - at least - more overlapping hitboxes (hope for a stealth buff?) slighty more range on b.dash was unfortunately also ignored.
i am bit worried about close.mp, as dwu will reduce the opportunities to set up a true blockstring from safe jump to close.mp (avoid reversal risk inbetween). only fierce or deep jump ins will provide that, but quite spacing/situation dependant and j.hp can be low profiled and j.hk lenghtens jump frame duration.
my hope is that having 1meter for extatsu will be enough to force the opp. to approach gouken more carefully, i.e. the risk of a powerful reversal changing pressure strategies…
ultra gouken will be the best ever and i think he will be solid. just dwu remains a big question mark in the big picture and gouken will still need alternative chars to counterpick certain match ups.
We only cared about the last 6frames give or take of a characters wake up animation anyhow…right? shit they could stay on the floor till Ultra 5 hits the USA. Give me more time to place 5flip dives to sweep on that ass.
Where hitboxes infringe upon one another is where Goukens true Meat n Potatoes reside, attacking wakeups first vulnerable frames and at theur point of singularity aka the prime meridian is our shining star on the wakeup horizon.
We are fortunate most for his Jump arcs travel speed ,symmetric as it is, along with next to zero recovery on sweep, and a sound fdash all in concert with an impeccable angle of attack on gflip and ex flip dives speed of course (in case were behind a frame or two) put us right smack dab in the GUT of the promise land.
Consequently, as luck would have it, only a select few in this game can attack a characters hitbox…the top 180 degree’s as ambiguously as Gouken.
the thought of delayed stand would only be an obstacle if opponents could vary the timing say by some weird wake up frame counts of maybe 11, 6, and some random ass 8.2 frames or some shit at their whim. But a static number to add to the equation ? Coo I’m wit it and its not a quick rise means we have all the time in the world to …NECKkICK !
does anyone know the (dis-)advantage of gouken when doing yolo extatsu fadc on block? are we -5 or will we have an advantage compared to the general system change coupled with gouken’s good f.dash?