Gouken, Make him a Master, SSF4 Changes

Classic Fighting Games Ultra Street Fighter IV
81

Crouch strong xx fireball should combo on things other than weird counter hit situations.

More hit stun on crouch jab to link crouch strong afterward, but not crouch fierce.

Justify EX tatsu’s cost by treating it like Abel’s super or Honda’s ultra and having it knock all the way to the corner, same to air EX tatsu.

Differentiate the EX counters, have punches high and kicks low, make EX launch like the second hit of his 623PP.

Since he’s getting linkage and fireballs to finish off combos from a jab slight damage decrease across the board.

Stand fierce XX tatsu should work on every character you hit with a focus attack…

Slightly decrease time for maximum charge on his hadoukens.

82

Tatsumaki: Honestly, though I am not opposed to having this move (at least the ex version) hit low, I kinda like that it only hits high. It makes it a really unique move and even further distinguishes it apart from an srk.

Since Gouken has been concieved, players on this forum have had a very hard time of where to place the Tatsumaki. Is it a wake up reversal move much like an srk? Is it an anti air move? The thing that makes the Tatsumaki so difficult is that noone knows what it’s really used for. It is a very grey move. It has many applications yet does not excel in any of them. This move is extremely unreliable in every situation that it can be used for. This move is broken. It would help alot if Capcom were to unblurr this move and give it definition; something it is specifically used for. You can’t use the none EX versions of this move as a wake up. There are not enough (if any?) invincibility frames on it.

If this move does become ungreyed and Capcom desides to give it an actual purpose, and if they decide to make it a wake-up reversal type move much like an srk, then by God… make it invincible. It’s bad enough that it doesn’t hit low, at least make the active frames start earlier or allow the move to be invincible until the active frames.

If they decide to make this move into a strictly anti-air move (which is my opinion, as you will see why after hearing my ideas about Kongoshin), then they need to make the move a solid anti-air move that does not whiff so easily. If the first hit lands, then all of the preceeding hits should also land. Also, the first initial hit of the Tatsumaki needs to be more difinitive as an anti-air, and hit more consistently by increasing it’s priority. Gouken’s legs are short. So if I have to wait forever for a jumping character to get all the way down and in range of the initial kick, that initial kick needs to take priority over a j.hk. (If, of course, this move goes strictly anti-air.)

This move needs a difinitive purpose. I detest the lack of definition and it’s “all-purposeness.” I’d rather it be what it’s going to be and for it to be good and reliable at that thing.

Palm: I actually like the way they did this move. I know it’s punishable on block, but i think it should be. Other wise it’d be like a tiger knee. :tdown:

Kongoshin: I think I would enjoy this move better as a parry. I wish it did not take fake damage and thus did not increase meter that way, but instead acted like an actual parry in that it deflected the damage and automatically gave it in return. Also if this was the case, I’d like to see the high version parry non-command throws as well. This is not an unrealistic request. We have no wake up. An srk on wake up beats everything except block. Kongoshin acting in the way I described above would allow for the non-EX high version to take care of throws/high attacks and be susceptible to low attacks, whilst the low version only low attacks, thus being susceptible to high attacks and throws. This would be a very realistic “buff” and would not be over-powered in the least. Of course the other option an opponent has to a rising Gouken would be to do nothing, thus when the rising Gouken performs the Kongoshin he is super suceptable to punishment much like a blocked srk. This though, would give the opponent no chip damage for he would not be blocking anything.

The above scenario of Kongoshin is STILL inferior to the properties of an srk. This is a viable balance to Gouken’s wake-up game.

Gouken’s normals/Hit confirms: I think Gouken’s normals seriously lack. I also belive that this is a good balance to a zone-type character. His close-in game should lack in comparison to other characters in order to compensate for his keep away abilities. If the above scenario of Kongoshin was a reality, I could accept his lack of normals. How often does Ryu spam srk during a block stun? Can I not be allowed to spam high Kongoshin and at the same time have no fear of a tick throw attempt? A spammed srk has no fear of a tick throw attempt OR a low attack during block stun. Not to go into Kongoshin again, but I do think that Gouken’s normals not having link abilities is completely acceptable with Kongoshin reworked like this.

There’s more I can touch on, but It’s late and this is a rediculously long post as it is. Sorry for all the spelling errors.

83

The problem with Gouken right now I feel is the players, too many of the Gouken’s I’ve played ALWAYS went for the counter move. jump in, they go for the counter, get thrown, the minute the get meter they go for EX Tatsu.

Give him crMPxxHadouken and a fake fireball and we good.

EDIT: I play Fuerte… most of his normals suck too. but now that I think about it, I’m starting to think Gouken has WORSE normals then even Fuerte…

84

Gouken pretty much already has a “fake fireball”. his standing strong punch is fairly indistinguishable from his lp fireball motion. I’ve been baiting a LOT of jumps and such by tapping down, going neutral and hitting mp.

85

just throw this out there,
why not gouken just have a parry that works just like 3rd strike parry?
same inputs everything.

why not?

86

My uneducated guess is it is not worth the extra technical programming to implement 3S parry system for just one character. This is probably why his existing parry (and other characters’ EX armor moves) reuses the SF4 FA system.

I thought Gouken’s normals are actually good, unless you compare every shoto to Ryu’s gold standard.

An ultra parry would be amazingly underused imho, but aren’t they already giving him Denjin?

87

so you gouken players basically want ryu with a parry and sagat damage.

maybe im wrong here, but wouldnt it be boring as fuck if he didnt have his own set of weaknesses. so far ive seen:

i want a dp. even tho i already have an anti air fireball and a parry that takes away crossups

i want low foward fireball like safe strings with chip dmg. even tho all my combos take off 320+ and most come with resets that end up stunning and then killing with a wrong guess by my opponent

i want parry to be better so i can spam it. even tho it stops crossups and tosses my opponent all the way across the screen for either more zoning or my massive corner combos

i want less recovery on my tatsu. even tho i probrablly shouldnt use it outside of combos in the first place. id like to spam that shit to. so online i can hit lk tatsu, lk tatsu xN like ryu and his dp

maybe im ranting and coming off as an ass at this point, but seriously think about what these buffs would do to the matches that you already do well in.

88

all gouken needs is a light attack that can be actually used to connect his specials.

he relies too much on starting combos with heavy attacks that cant be linked from a light attack etc etc

make c.lk->fireball a combo at least.

89

Because it has a whiff animation and putting a whiff animation on tapping forward would make the character stupidly impossible to play. Making it work exactly like 3s parry would make the character both broken and less interesting. What would you even hope to achieve with this?

90

Post of the week right here.

91

Something i actually forgot to say about Kongoshin in my previous post…

If Kongoshin had the elements I spoke about, I think it would be right to take away the parry’s ability on crossups.

Here’s the low down on my Kongoshin ideas:

  1. Kongoshin High: Parries high attacks and non-command throws.

  2. Kongoshin Low: Parrries low attacks, susceptible to throws and mid/high attacks.

  3. Kongoshin EX: Parries high/low attacks as well as non-command throws. Trade off is that the active frames are less and on contact does less damage. (This would be similar to a non-EX srk, but is worse for the obvious reason of having to use meter, as well as the lack of chip damage on a “whiff”.)

  • Trade off to this could be as stated above, the new parry will not work on cross-ups.

  • The new parry would be an actual parry and will not absorb damage, but deflect it and return it. (Still take chip damage on specials like the special was blocked? I’d accept that.)

  • Also the new parry would not work with fireballs. But would only work for physical based moves.

  • Keep in mind, this new parry i’m concocting still has huge holes in comparison to an srk. The fact that it is still completely based on anticipation of your opponents specific attack, the high/low dichotomy, and the meter you have to spend to get the benefits of an srk-esque element make this new Kongoshin no where near as good as a non-EX srk. But what it does do, is help close some of the holes in the move set that at the moment look as though the person who came up with it was on a time constraint. :lame:

92

Gouken needs better frames on his normals on block. cl. MP, having + frames would be awesome +4. cr. Jab should be +2 on block. cl. fierce should be 6 frame startup not 8.

Backthrow needs 3 frame startup, it’s breakable no reason for 5 frames.

Gouken’s Hadouken needs to be negative on block if it combo’s from cr. MP people really don’t understand how it combo’ing from cr. MP consistently would break him.
On counter hit should always combo from cr. MP however.

EX hurricane should hit crouchers lower damage on it slightly in exchange.

Larger hitbox on when his palm thrust executes so it can be made semi-safe at certain ranges (too inconsistent currently, will also help combo from anti-air fireball with more consistency).

Counters should not break against reversals, but should break against armor breaking moves. This adds alot more value to air-parry. His demon flip dives needs a slight speed boost and slightly fatter hitbox.

He DOESN’T have high damaging anti-airs because he has nearly sonic boom like recovery on his fireballs. If your getting jump’d on consistently it’s YOUR FAULT for not hitting them. Between counter, cr. FP, st. MK, and nj. FP you can anti-air ANYTHING in the game. Mix that shit up … hell if you spend some time in practice mode you can probably even learn to do EX hurricane anti-air consistently has a tight timing to guarantee vacuum but well within practicality to do 100% of the time.

93

I agree with most everything you said except…

EX hurricane damage is already terrible.

No he doesn’t dude. Sagat has a better recovery than Gouken does. It’s quicker than Ryu/Ken for sure, but almost like Guile’s Sonic Boom? No.

Vaccuum?

Also, for EX Hurricane to work as an anti-air, the opponent would have to be doing an empty jump-in. It CAN connect even if the opponent tries a high priority air attack, but the rest of the tatsu rarely (never?) connects and your opponent can get up well before you and punish.

94

nah Ex hurricane can connect regardless of whether they attack or not it’s a spacing thing so it’s nothing you can’t do consistently. It whiffs when your leg hits their extended limb but their body is to far away to have the second hit connect.

Lol, every attack that doesn’t do 20% damage is … well. … bad damage :crybaby:

Sagat’s cr. Tigershot has 44 frames of recovery Ryu’s fireball has 45 frames of recovery if Gouken’s is better than ryu’s than it’s at least equal with Sagats …

Gouken’s recovery is 41 frames btw

only fireball faster besides boom is Ryu EX fireball and Sagat STANDING EX fireball

It’s faster, just Gouken’s has more startup (because it’s + frames on block). So it’s easier to jump at times because people see the fireball before it executes.

Gouken has great corner game he just needs better frames to get hits mid-screen to actually corner his opponent. Improved OKI is better for him than improved zoning game.

95

he just needs some better normals

his counter moves should be a regular counter move, not a glorified focus attack. it should not lose to reversals or armor breaking moves, nor should he take damage during it

and make his hurricane kick a viable anti air like guy’s from alpha series

96

yea pretty much what i was thinking.

and are u freakin kiddin me how much damage should it do exactly if its not already enough?

97

Let me clarify.

For the amount of risk that is associated with the move, the damage given to one that actually fully connects is crap. Even if the move connects, but does not fully connect, there’s a serious price to pay, and the opponent can like, go make a sandwhich, watch an episode of Dexter, come back and still have time to taunt before he punishes. Even without the horrible recovery, the damage EX Tatsu outputs is still pretty mediocre. When it does connect say on wake-up, i never look at the damage i did with it and feel satisfied.

98

Where did the denjin ultra rumor come from? (Just curious)

99

Its for use in combos. Outside of confirmed plugs into combos (post ex-palm or after s.fp) you’re asking to be punished.

We have c.fp. Not every character needs a command AA.

It has a use. Its an EX palm combo finisher that allows maximum damage.

Counter is fine. You just have to choose your use of it carefully. Gouken is a specialised character and his specials have certain situations where they are viable. The damage he sucks up when performing counter isn’t an issue. When we smash opponents away via counter we gain an entire screen’s spacing which is ample time to hurl a well placed ball on their wake-up whilst we heal. Counter also does a tremendous amount of damage AND we can tack a super onto it if we have meter. If you’re extra snappy, you can FADC and Ultra.

A three frame jab would be nice as a means to stave off some wake-up/walk-up abuse and it would be nice if s.mk had a little more active hitting frames. j.mp should share the same juggle properties as Ryu’s. As it stands its a little bit fickle though I do like the second hit juggle/reset we can use. f.mp should hit twice.

Other than that, I personally think his normals are actually pretty good. Remember he’s largely a zone and punish character and introducing hit confirms to Gouken would significantly alter this character to the point of making him play completely differently.

The reason I like Gouken is because he is unique. He is a character class of his own. I see far too many wish-lists for Gouken that reflect a desire for him to play like established characters which I think is a poor method of addressing where he lacks. The command AA/SRK ‘wishlists’ are a good example of this - you don’t need a command AA that exhibits invincibility to tango in this game as plenty of characters on the roster demonstrate.

We have the wake-up ‘issue’ with Gouken though I feel a three frame jab would work somewhat in our favour to deal with this. Additionally, we’ve had folks suggest that a tatsu from demon flip option would help us escape. Its an interesting idea actually but I also feel it might make Gouken a little to difficult for people to get in on. When Gouken’s on point, he stands his ground and controls space extremely well. Giving him ANOTHER method to regain his space might be asking for a little too much. Its very evident that Capcom were mindful of what they gave Gouken lest he be rendered utterly broken or severely over-powered. For the most part, I think they succeeded though he does have room for some very minor tweaks.

Also - look at our matchups. We’re 5:5 or 6:4 with most of the cast. We have no easy wins but we certainly don’t get absolutely trounced either. Gouken has the tools to hold his ground though he does have to work for it. I like that.

As I understand it, we can expect a new Ultra for Gouken. This might further work in our favour so who knows where our character stands with this new tool and the unknown setups it may bring to the table.

I don’t understand what you mean. NOTHING can be punished nor tick-thrown if you are in block-stun. When you’re in block-stun, you’re paralysed. That’s how block-stun works.

100

I think that Gouken really doesn’t need a whole lot, but some simple changes could do wonders.

One would be, as others have said, a slightly faster charge on his fireballs. Currently, people can basically just throw a fireball as it comes out of your hands, then throw another fireball before it gets to them, they never need to stop spamming fireballs. Akuma’s red fireball for example, definitely makes people block or jump over it.

Someone also suggested things earlier, and I think it would be amazing: being able to cancel his fireball charge (such as C.Viper canceling her seismic hammer or thunder knuckle) that would really be awesome, and add some mind games.

One thing I don’t think anyone has mentioned, and it is a small thing, but something I definitely think is worth mentioning: a better back-dash. His current back-dash is so short that even FADCing backwards out of rush punch is very unsafe, and you can’t really use it to avoid anything or bait people or whatever, because it only moves like 2 inches.

I also think his air tatsu should move through the air a bit faster, and recover faster. I’d like to be able to use it as somewhat of an escape tactic, but currently they can just dash up and get a combo on you even if they don’t predict it. Maybe this is asking for a bit much though, and it is true EX air tatsu moves very fast. I suppose a single EX meter for an escape, especially on a character with a pretty good zoning game isn’t too bad.

I’d also like to see his air focus attack have a slightly longer window, and a faster recovery. Currently, it has very little use because it’s straight up too slow and killer to time.

And, to top it off I’d like to see the ability to string jabs into a tatsu. (And maybe you can already do this and I’m just terrible, but I’ve tried in training mode for over an hour without getting it a single time)