He certainly doesn’t need much of a buff… it’s a GOOD thing when characters have weaknesses, as it makes you THINK instead of spamming safe shit all day a la Sagat/Rog/Etc.
One buff they could give him is to link his jabs together… but ONLY jabs link into themselves. This way, you could link jabs into hurricane kick, but ONLY hurricane kick, which doesn’t work on a lof of crouchers. With all those jabs, the scaling should take care of the damage, and if you FADC into Ultra, same deal, scaling will make it fair.
He doesn’t need anything else really… maybe make the recovery on air parry not so shitty? Make whiff hurricane recovery a little better?
What I’d REALLY like to see if better recovery on the air hurricanes. People don’t know just how good that move is yet.
I think Gouken is great. The only thing I would change is maybe give his tatsu some invul frames and a larger attack box to make up for how amazingly unsafe it is.
I pitched the idea some time ago to have one EX counter immune to armor attacks and only counter high, and the other EX counter to be what they both currently are. Should be interesting to playtest, at least.
That’s a really good idea.
But I think it’s fine that he doesn’t have the shoto footsie-to-fireball game.
I agree with some earlier posts that his normals should be better. I thought originally he’d be more of a straight forward striker reflecting his nonlethal style but story aside, I find only a few of his normals useful and even fewer useful links
Akuma is like, one of the few characters that doesn’t require any super or ultra to do outrageous damage and is outright the most mobile and nimble character of the entire cast between insane walk speed, teleport, and Demon Flip.
What exactly is it that you’re talking about?
Gouken IS the anti-akuma in that he DOES rely heavily on zoning fireballs and playing a range game, almost every attack in his arsenal is a means of pushing your opponent away from you or strictly used as punishing a mistake. He has no solid hit confirms into big damage outside of his back throw.
-Parry should not take temporary damage: he’s PARRYING, not doing a n00b-Focus and absorbing a hit to the body. Tiger uppercut/Bison stomp temp damages more than a SPD potentially sometimes, making even a landed parry barely worth the risk!
-Parries should beat ALL standard moves and specials (especially Saruka’s sneakers! :rolleyes: ) except projectiles as a trade-off (despite how useful the latter is) and all supers, but not Ultras: there needs to be some logic and consistency to this move.
-Earlier recovery on Demon Flip air-counter: you anticipate, you should be rewarded.
-Ex Tatsu to ‘axe kick’ opponent straight down: give the Ex version a bit of strategic variety – he’s got enough keep-away moves as it is.
-Less nonsensical wiffage… a lot less!
-Shin Shoryuken should only be scaled if 3 or more hits precede it: having it scaled to nada after a hip-toss to j.:mp: is effectively punishment for demonstrating a modicum of timing and eschewing just Ultra-ing straight into a hip-toss. The latter of which is, suffice to say, n00bish to the extreme.:tdown:
-Invincible frames on Shin Shoryuken start-up: I’m over rolling my yes at Blanka balls and Ken’s testicles(!) beating what looks the most powerful move in the game. :rolleyes:
-A second parry-type [unscaleable] Ultra, a la Mr Karate in late KoF games/Reg A: would make him far more of a threat against late game corner cross-up mashers and augment his ‘defensive’ feel/mantra.
If he didn’t take temporary damage he wouldn’t build ultra meter for it. The advantage of having the move take the temporary damage is the meter gain.
So, let’s say it took no temporary damage: So when a player gets off the ground from a knockdown and then hits you then you can say that you took less damage. But it’s still your fault for getting hit. The risk isn’t the fact that the move takes temporary damage, the risk is how you play when you are recovering the damage.
Point again is, he’s PARRYING. It’s incongruous for him to take damage, at least as much as for a Bogus hit, given he’s actually deflecting the attack. Surely the logic is obvious here…?
He can still build Ultra. Why not? That can be incorporated in the changes. I mean, did Geese take damage for Arteminage?.. even K’ for his super desperation attack? The latter of which isn’t even a parry as such!
If they were going to change it they could just as easily change the way it looks instead of the way it acts, since your issue with it seems to be that it doesn’t make sense based the fact that he looks like he is parrying. Not that making visual sense matters a whole lot in SF.
Like why would Rufus’ ex Tornado pull you in just because a fat man in twirling around. Why would Abel’s roll be invincible just because he’s rolling along the ground where anyone could kick him in the face. Why would shoto’s c.LK’s actually hurt you when all they are doing is sliding their foot into yours (and you’re Guile with steel toed boots on). And let’s not get into what counts as an overhead and what doesn’t, because lol. Also nevermind the fact that being set on fire and/or electrocuted doesn’t kill you, let alone burn you at all.
Gouken doesn’t take direct damage either, it’s temporary recoverable damage. There’s a big difference.
Really? That looks like a parry to you? Interesting I don’t recall a parry ever hitting someone back for you. What I do recall is counters working like that.
What he’s doing is countering. As with every counter I can think of (Dudley’s Cross Counter and Remy’s SA3) you still take the damage and immediately counter-attack them.
The sheer fact that he can even regenerate that health makes his counter one of the best in street fighter history. It is not by any means a Parry, as you are correct, if it were a parry he wouldn’t take the damage, but nor would he counter-attack them for hitting him.
In fact, him even hitting them back should sound off massive alarms in your head. What is an attack that is in reaction to another person attacking you? A counter attack. Counter. Parrying was a system available to every character in 3; countering has always been a mechanic saved for certain character’s move-sets.
And clearly he’s not deflecting the attack. If he were deflecting the attack, he wouldn’t be taking damage, he’s letting them hit him in a position that’s beneficial to him (hence the health regeneration, to emphasize that this is something he’s purposefully letting happen just as you would do an FA to absorb a hit).
Like yeah, it’s semantics, but his counter works like every other counter does, and doesn’t work like every other parry has, so why call it a parry when that’s clearly not what it is?
It’s important to keep Gouken’s counter as armor-breakable. Just like all moves that absorb damage but continue on to deliver a hit (Fuerte EX run, Balrog rush punches, etc), they must lose to armor breakers. It really makes for an interesting dynamic, and also immediately has strict rules which can be enforced that always make sense… none of this “beats specials, but not projectiles, beats supers but not ultras”. It beats every move in the game that isn’t a throw or an armor-breaker.
Interestingly, maybe making EX high counter deflect high attacks and armor-breakers and EX low counter act like the current EX counter is worth thinking about. It might not be a very elegant design, though.
It’s a parry with an automatic counter-hit. He is deflecting the hit, at least it’s implied so, given he’s holding his arm up. Even Fight Night classified this action as a parry. Just because the Capcom imbued the move with an auto counter-hit doesn’t make it less of a parry. Tomayto, tomahto I suppose though…*
I’d actually prefer an additional input (with varying properties) to initiate the hit. But I’m sure that would have gone beyond the kiddicentric scope of ‘IV’.
Anywho, for him to take the damage he does from landing the move makes no sense because he’s ‘absorbing’ the blow where he designates (ie, on his arm). As distinct from a Bogus attack, which absorbs the blow on the body, head, face… wherever the attacker lands it. As such, he should take the proportionate amount of damage (ie. a lot less.)
Not to mention doing the move takes a negligible amount of skill given there’s a directional command involved (unlike with Bogus), thus engendering the inherent haphazardness of the input shortcuts and auto turn-arounds. Plus you’ve gotta pick high or low generally. So I think the relative difficulty and riskiness of the move is reasonably higher than the generic Bogus. And as such, should be factored into the recoverable damage the ‘parry’ incurs.
(*Someone should translate the Japanese ‘Kongoshin’. That may help clear it up.)
