same here
Not learned anough to understand what you’re talking about? I don’t know what you’re talking about right now. I wasn’t responding to you, so I wasn’t even paying attention to what you were talking about. Do YOU understand what I’M talking about? Maybe you want to explain things out to me where I’m wrong instead of beating your chest about how you can totally whup my ass in street fighter 4 because I’m somehow a scrub?:lame:
I agreed with you that 3 frame jab makes gouken too good (you’re words, “he will be the best character in the game”). Does me agreeing with you offend you somehow? Or do you just want S tier gouken, and could care less about silly things like ‘balance’? Go learn more about game design, you clearly aren’t learned enough with frame data.:yawn:
And you don’t want to play me. Not in the “I’mma crush you” kind of way, but in the “My connection is so bad you’ll last about 5 seconds before you get pissed off and leave the game” way. I didn’t even bother renewing my XBL account, the connection is so bad.
The buffs everyone seems to agree on:
-j.MP can juggle from 2 hits
-
Some Normals getting more hitstun/blockstun (Mp to fireball, and possibly some MK/MP links)
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Removal of counter and air parry being armor broken (I like reipin’s suggestion on this)
-
Tatsu hits so that the opponent can’t fall out of it.
-
Tatsu hits crouching characters.
-Some kind of EX Tatsu buff (eveyone can’t seem to agree on what it should be…)
Just to be clear I didn’t say counter/air parry can’t be armor broken, I said make it so it cannot be armor broken by reversals.
To be clear on my thoughts with tatsu hitting crouching foes.
since hk.tatsu has 13 frame start up, its 6 frames faster than his mp.overhead with 19 frames, but is easily punished on block; I think the 1st kick should be made into an Overhead and retain it’s AA property. Maybe edit his vulnerability hit-boxes before the 1st hit too.
since ex.tatsu cost meter, its 7 frame starup is okay with me for Overhead and AA properties.
lk&mk tatsu are easier to combo (7&10 frames), but rather than have them hit crouching foes I would like to see 20 frames off all ground tatsu recovery for more safety. (note: still not safe)
I think at the very least, EX flip parry should be able to parry armor breaking moves. Aside from the jump, EX flip’s options are no different from the regular version, which is strange.
EX demon flip homes in on the opponent, plus has invincibility frames on startup (which makes it useful for wakeup)
Right, but that’s all to do with leaving the ground. I’m not saying EX fliup is bad, cause it’s not, but I think it would be nice if his actual attacks / parries benefited from being EX.
Why exactly does EX Tatsu need a buff? It does 200 damage O.o…
Sagat has a crouching 3 frame jab and an invincible dp, asswipe.
You can not low profile his dp with a wiff low attack on wake-up to make his uppercut miss.
Ryu has a crouching 3 frame jab and an invincible dp that you can not low profile attack under like Gouken’s EX-Tastu on wake-up.
Both if they have meter can DP for free with no risk and focus cancel if the dp is gaurded. Gouken needs EX meter to much to be spaming EX-Tatsu or EX-Flip every time on wake up.
Gouken only has three options and nethier is good in pressure situations vs top teir characters:
#1)Break throw
#2) Jump
#3) Gaurd
If you Ex-Filp on wake-up you can be hit in the air before any command out of filp will active.
Dude you have alot to learn…:lame:
EX tatsu (qcb+ KK) just needs to do more damage. I am talking Rufus EX Snake Edge (f,d,f+PP) damage. There no real use for it besides on wake up and even thats not a good option if your opponent is crouching <- Which needs changing.
Because the risk is far higher than the reward. You whiff on a c.opponent or he blocks, get ready to eat a full FA-combo-Ultra. It’s also not a very reliable AA. It should also catch cross ups.
I also still say give him a neutral recovery option from Demon flip to where he recover standing on landing for mind games.
BTW guys, I am not even sure Ono is even having his guys check this thread since Wizard created a master list to send to Ono months ago. You may be wasting your typing time?
Probably because there gouken players themselves. I really think they should just leave gouken the way he is. Maybe tweak a few moves here and there but nothing major like giving him an SRK. 
If he gets a crouching jab that is 3 frames he will have an SRK.
Thank you for stating gouken’s weaknesses. I don’t recall arguing that they were not, infact, weaknesses, but whatever.
Gouken is not ryu. Ryu is supposed to have a footsie game, unlike gouken…so I don’t see why you’re bringing him up.
Gouken is not sagat. I’ll agree up and down that sagat is too good at close range, which is dumb considering how good he is from further out. I really don’t think sagat should have any 3 frame normals either. As a sidenote, I love how I bring up game balance, and you bring up the character that’s the best in the game. 
Again, Gouken is SUPPOSED to crumble under pressure. That is his weakness, and what his design clearly entails. If you don’t want him to have this weakness, you are free to play another character that does not have this weakness (you mentioned two of them). If you gave him a 3 frame jab, his footsie game becomes stronger, enough so that gouken wouldn’t want to avoid footsies. At that point his weakness becomes a strength, and that’s just silly. At best, gouken should get a solid wakeup option that uses meter, and since EX tatsu is so lackluster, I nominated that.
Also, “Gouken needs EX meter to much to be spaming EX-Tatsu or EX-Flip every time on wake up”? Wtf? That statement doesn’t even make sense. If wakeup is such a priority, than you save meter for one of those two wakeup options. It’s called meter management. It’s really not that hard.:rolleyes:
a) EX palm does 160, only 40 less, and set’s up a juggle
b) HK tatsu does 185 damage, only 15 less than EX, and doesn’t use meter.
c) If you try to use it outside a combo (antiair), the other player will fall out of it, quick stand, and destroy you.
Essentially, there’s no reason to use it, ever. A buff is warranted.
Really, I think it’s because the top characters have skewed what’s expected out of a character. You can go on and on about strengths and weaknesses, but those Ryu and Sagat always seem to come up and they really have no weaknesses plus they’re two of the best characters in the game. The other top character is Akuma, but his weakness is only stamina, which isn’t a gameplay weakness, per se. We’ve got too many suggestions trying to make characters “masters of all trades” like the triumvirate rather than trying to make a character better but still workable with the design they have.
And seriously, there is no reason to ever use ex tatsu. The only times I do it is because it’s cool-looking and the opp is about to die. In any situation I could use it (combo or lol antiair), I could do ex palm for a LOT more damage or c.hp for no meter, way more reliable, and way safer. In my opinion, ex tatsu needs some type of buff other than damage since ex palm is the damage option of choice. I’d go with startup invincibility.
But if you made ex tatsu do more damage (like Ken ex srk damage) plus fix all tatsus so opps can’t fall out, ex palm -> dash ex tatsu would be insane.
I understand what you are trying to argue I just don’t agree with it. Gouken advantages are when he is at a distance and can dictate tempo thru his fb footsies. When under pressure in close quarters he is lacking in many ways more so when he doesn’t have meter. His footsies are subpar. His only viable footsies I bother using in most battles are standing md kick, cr lht kick, and cr md punch. Only cr lht kick can be linked into a combo with lht tatsu. This however is very unsafe due to strict range and how wide open you are if you miss. I can’t see 3 frame jab making his footsie game even close to par with the majority of the cast. The majority of the close quarters fighter in sf4 have ways of get in on their opponents. Whats his safe way of getting back out?
well i do not know why you people underrate counter so much, it is actually good move.
ever fought a guile who follows his sonic boom with jump in? cant AA him since he follows his good ol buddy huh? same with chun li’s kikoken, and her stupid fast walk speed all ruins your attempt to AA on wake up, isnt? even worse guys like dhalsim and seth who teleport of they shoot their fire balls at ya and you are crying from the inside and asking for buffs this and that…
COUNTER DA FIREBALL, ya counter still beats fire balls, i mean it also has some invincibility frame ( the counter ) after it absorbs the hit, and then strikes within 2 or 3 frames ( SUPER FAST ) and you are able to change the tide with super cancel, or FADC ultra!!! IT IS KOOL!!
try it.
learn it.
master it.
love it.
Good stuff. Some of my best comebacks against rushdown guiles were in this situation.
Edit: Just to add: Honestly … intelligent use of his counter is a metagame in itself
I wish gouken was not so big. I mean I know he is like jacked and all, but he looks kind of fat to me.
Counter is a great anti-air, but I’ve never been able to pull off using the low counter. I imagine if someone mastered the low counter though, it would end up amazing considering footsie games tend to have a lot of low attacks.