I think I understand. The dash speed should be upped just enough so he can hit his brother if mp/hp dashpalms [dp] through purple FB mid range [around half screen] and can [block string] combo with lp/mp/ex dashpalms at distance greater than tatsu.
Yeah i wasn’t after 3 frame startups either as it seems his design is clearly avoiding it [among others]. There may be a line were some normals’ block/hit stun can be increased while not OP [ie tic throw or loop link] and still enough to chain a 17 frame startup hadouken. I think mp/mk would make better choices in the long run; they [mp/mk] currently have 16 frames of stun on hit.
ShengLongAbuser
-against it :shake: would abuse
You really think so? The only way I see it being broken is if they extended his throw range and made his back throw have the same tech window as his forward throw. That is the only way u could abuse with it. It would prevent people from abusing him since he has no truly safe wakeup options.
-tatsu no good (to much risk)you need 3bars to make it safe and if they r crouching
-counter(to much guessing and risk)
-ex demon flip(if they know how to play it your back to square one
Gouken’s at his best when he’s zoning. It takes quite a bit of effort for characters to get in on him, and by the time they do, they could very well have lost most of their life. His footsies are subpar, this is where he dies. If gouken had a 3 frame normal, he would just mash it to push you out, then zone again, which is too good for a character that can zone as well as he does.
If you get knocked down as gouken, you are supposed to have a hard time getting out. You have options for whatever the opponent does, but do not have anything that get’s you out easily. That’s the tradeoff for solid zoning, and overall high damage + life, you’re supposed to get abused on wakeup. (IGNORE THE SAGAT PLAYERS! THAT WAY LIES MADNESS!)
The best he should even THINK of getting for wakeup, is an EX tatsu buff, and even then, it shouldn’t be as good as the rest of the cast’s wakeup options. Something like, full throw invulnerability, and upper body invulnerability on startup. It should also have a vacuum effect, so if it lands at all the entire move will connect. The effect is that you can use it as anti-air/ throw protection on wakeup, but they can fireball you out of it, or meaty sweep you out of it, or just c.LK on your wakeup.
TL;DR version:
3 frame normals and controllable demon flip = good, but too good.
EX tatsu with partial invulnerability = Just right.
Sheesh dude… Sounds like you want people to hate you or something. If you’d have said that i’d of thought it equally as funny.
Also, those of you who think palm is useless outside combos… Palm is great for pressure. Yes i know it is punishable. But palm can catch people off guard like you wouldn’t believe. My favorite thing to do after my opponent blocks a lp.fb up close is to immediately lp.palm. Catches the best of em.
Gouken’s at his best when he’s zoning. It takes quite a bit of effort for characters to get in on him, and by the time they do, they could very well have lost most of their life. His footsies are subpar, this is where he dies. If gouken had a 3 frame normal, he would just mash it to push you out, then zone again, which is too good for a character that can zone as well as he does.
-Slim is a zoning character, Ryu is a zoning character, Sagat is a zoning character, Akuma is a zoning character, Gouken is a zoning character… All of them have solid options on wake up. All can do alot of damage. All except Gouken have solid wake up. Only Sagat is broken. This is not due to his tiger uppercut but to everything in his arsenal having high priority. I know Akuma has low health. I’m using him for arguments sake.
If you get knocked down as gouken, you are supposed to have a hard time getting out. You have options for whatever the opponent does, but do not have anything that get’s you out easily. That’s the tradeoff for solid zoning, and overall high damage + life, you’re supposed to get abused on wakeup. (IGNORE THE SAGAT PLAYERS! THAT WAY LIES MADNESS!)
-This all goes back to back to my last statement. They don’t have these same limitations. I’m not asking for a teleport that would truly be too much. I’m asking 1 less frame to his jab. The reason he has does high damage is because almost all of his combos are started from fierce. There is no other character in the game who can only start legitimate combos form fierce. But thats for another time
I agree with the pandaman. he needs rep and bamboo.
most of the cast is designed with an inherent weakness… this is Goukens. I’ld improve what Gouken is designed to be good at rather than negate an intended weakness. It’s like giving guile a go to answer for crossups :xeye:.
oh… ShengLongAbuser
3 frame startup jabs with +3 frame hit advantage = I forgot Gouken haz counters to beat footsie.
The old shoto needs to rely on his counters more, and cancel specials with it, not get new buffs to replace its use.
All those characters mentioned have different weaknesses than gouken, because they are not gouken. Dhalsim’s wakeup really isn’t much better, and has various other weaknesses that gouken does not share. Ryu is good at zoning, but gouken is better at it. You’ve already noted akuma has less health and stun, add onto that a harder to land ultra. I mentioned sagat before because he’s the only character in the game with zoning as good as gouken’s that has absolutely no weakness, and that’s absurd.
3 frame startup on his jab would be fine if it ONLY buffed his wakeup game, but it doesn’t do that. It buffs his entire game at close range, which isn’t a range he should be buffed. You wouldn’t just mash jab on wakeup, you’d mash it whenever the opponent entered jab/throw range, every single time.
No. If gouken get’s a buff on wakeup it should be something he would use mostly for wakeup, and occasionally in other scenarios.
Honestly, to preserve the character, he should get his zoning buffed. Shorter startup on fireballs by 1 or 2 frames would be delicious.
Air parry and Kongoshin immune to reversal armor breaking, but NOT armor breaking moves.
Change Kongoshin to lp = High counter, mp = throw counter, hp low counter (seriously what is the need for 3 different buttons to do the same exact move, i.e. lp, mp, hp all counter high with no property differences and the same with kicks except low counter and EX Kongo with either punch or kick is the same, just too repetitive. How many other moves in the game have the same exact properties for each punch or kick?)
Remove Kongoshin using kicks (removes overlap with tatsu)
Make EX tatsu hit low and connect on all hits if first hit connects.
I think that would just about tidy him up nicely, depending on what others get of course.
EX palm could use a buff. Either in the form of near-instant start-up, or with armor properties. Could be applied viciously at mid-range, but maybe also as a wake-up.
I havnt read through this entire thread so I dont know if it’s been mentioned yet…
I think the hit box on his Demon Flip kick should be improved a bit to were he reliably gets the crossup. I’m tired of flipping on wakeup and having my inside knee slide through my oppenents head, yet wiffing.
You are not learned enough with frame data to understand what I am talking about. Maybe I should just kick your ass online and then you will understand what I am talking about.
When do you want to play scrub and what account are you on. PSN= foot in mouth or XBL=foot in ass.
