Gouken, Make him a Master, SSF4 Changes

[Pandaman64]

Sablicious is right, this game is too easy.

Make all ultra inputs quadruple 360’s+all three button’s and kicks.

And if you want to juggle from anything, you should need to mid air renda cancel. That would add so much depth to the game, and wouldn’t be retarded at all.

In all honesty, getting mad because something is easy to do is stupid. EVERYTHING in a fighting game should be easy to do, but hard to LAND. If LANDING it is too easy, then there’s a problem. Case in point, the gouken backthrow is the most easy throw to break in the game. If you manage to land such a thing, you get ultra. That’s Design 101, don’t make anything harder than it needs to be.

Don’t get pissed because you made it hard on yourself for no damn reason, by adding in a weak move that scales the ultra. Don’t cry that the game should reward you based on input difficulty instead of tactical play. Just go play the game. You want a game that rewards long well timed inputs? Play guitar hero, or some other rhythm game.

On topic, I don’t really see a lot that needs to be changed. He’s supposed to be zoning oriented, so he’s supposed to have a bad wakeup game. His normals feel kind of odd, in that you can’t even jab into fireball, so it would be nice to change that I guess?

I’d like EX air tatsu to be made better…the move seems kinda pointless, without any real use. It would also be nice if the buffed the dash punch, so it’s easier to punish FB spam with it. As is the dash punch doesn’t really seem useful outside of combos. Basically, anything that’s useless make not useless (come on capcom, you designed the move for a reason, right??).

I also agree with the tatsu hitting crouching characters and the j.MP juggling from 2 hits.

[True_Tatsu]

While i can follow the logic of wanting to eliminate the current low counter motion because it’s similar to the tatsu… 2 things seem over looked by the suggestion.

1. There are a plethora of characters with :qcf: and :dp: motions with corresponding direction and final input commands; two of which are S-Tier.

2. This counter is based on Karin’s (SFA3) which had an advantage Gouken’s lacks; Karin’s counters could cancel her rekkas with it, in addition to vary its active window.

if the counters were to be simplified, as earlier suggested, I’ld like to see…
lp.counter = lo w/ hit
mp.counter = hi w/ hit
hp.counter = hi & lo w/ throw attempt; techs normal throw
ex. counter = hi & lo w/ hit; techs normal throw
holding the punch input can extend the active frames by 20~30 frames.

if the counters input were to stay the same i’ld like to see…
p.counter be canceled into from his dash punch and maybe his hadouken.
k.counter be canceled into from his dash punch too.
p/k strength effect active window and maybe dmg returned.

side note: for me the j.mp (Gouken < Ryu) got mentioned because I’ld mention the things like Cammy’s hooligan input vs Demon flip input (Cammy < Gouken & Gouki)

[Mr_List]

i’d like to be able to counter fast enough to use on fireball spams.
atm it is too slow and you need to use focus attacks.

maybe a version of counter without the counter part of the move.

[Xenozip]

As is the dash punch doesn’t really seem useful outside of combos. Basically, anything that’s useless make not useless (come on capcom, you designed the move for a reason, right??).

I dunno, they gave Cammy the axle spin knuckle that goes through fireballs and no one uses it for that. In any game she’s in. I really doubt Capcom wanted a character with a fast fireball to have an easy way to beat other fireballs. Hell they didn’t even want characters with no fireball to have an easy way to beat them.

[Togo_Oppocoat]

You strike me as the kind of guy who picks Dan so he has an excuse to lose and a reason to think he is awesome when he wins.

Made me rofl out loud irl.

I’d like EX air tatsu to be made better…the move seems kinda pointless, without any real use. It would also be nice if the buffed the dash punch, so it’s easier to punish FB spam with it. As is the dash punch doesn’t really seem useful outside of combos. Basically, anything that’s useless make not useless (come on capcom, you designed the move for a reason, right??).

Wait, seriously? First of all, I palm through fireballs all the time and nail people on reaction/anticipation. Are we playing the same Gouken? Cause that shit is easy. Also, lp palm can be used on certain charcters to punish, not to mention it can be used after a close lp.fb to catch people off guard, or even to combo if the distance is right and the lp.fb connects. I love palm. Use it wisely and the fact that it’s punishable on block won’t ever bother you.

Also at the moment I use air ex Tatsu to get out of corner pressure. Works wonders on the Gief matchup.

i’d like to be able to counter fast enough to use on fireball spams.
atm it is too slow and you need to use focus attacks.

maybe a version of counter without the counter part of the move.

What are you talking about? No, I’m really asking. No sarcasm here. Cause dude, Kongoshin is active on the first frame. And our fireball recovery is great.

As it is with Kongo using kick and the motion overlapping with tatsu, trying to do a tatsu when you were just blocking or walking back usually results in a low counter Kongo. Kind of like trying to walk forward with Abel and then doing cr.mp xx rekkathing usually turns into cr.mp xx falling Sky with Abel belting out PUNISH ME as he exposes his armpit.

Dude. I completely agree. Honestly, because of this Tatsu isn’t really an anti-air option for me. I can use it on wake up sometimes on meaties, but that’s about it. It would be so nice to walk backwards and have the option to do a Tatsu on jump-ins on reaction without the worry of Kongoshin coming out. Hope Capcom reads this.

[Sablicious]

Sablicious is right, this game is too easy.

Make all ultra inputs quadruple 360’s+all three button’s and kicks.

And if you want to juggle from anything, you should need to mid air renda cancel. That would add so much depth to the game, and wouldn’t be retarded at all.

http://instantrimshot.com/

In all honesty, getting mad because something is easy to do is stupid. EVERYTHING in a fighting game should be easy to do, but hard to LAND. If LANDING it is too easy, then there’s a problem. Case in point, the gouken backthrow is the most easy throw to break in the game. If you manage to land such a thing, you get ultra. That’s Design 101, don’t make anything harder than it needs to be.

You “get Ultra” if you’re a scrub. You get myriad other things if you want to expand your play, your mind and just maybe stave of Alzheimer’s a few years longer! <_<

Don’t get pissed because you made it hard on yourself for no damn reason, by adding in a weak move that scales the ultra. Don’t cry that the game should reward you based on input difficulty instead of tactical play. Just go play the game. You want a game that rewards long well timed inputs? Play guitar hero, or some other rhythm game.

So your logic is that games should reward us for something facile as distinct from something comparatively difficult?
What next, McDonald’s workers on a brain surgeon’s salary?! :rolleyes:

Wii-ism really has indoctrinated the feeble minds of gamers beyond the pale of reasonability. >_>

You strike me as the kind of guy who picks Dan so he has an excuse to lose and a reason to think he is awesome when he wins.

Made me rofl out loud irl.

The fool always does find one more foolish to admire him.

[Chrisis]

Reipin pillage, it could be that technique lowering his hit box to just his feet. But also, yes there’s a way that the system identifies something as a fireball as shown by Rose’s reflect. He just needs to have massive hitboxes above and in front of him that detect helpers and negate them on touch. ^.^ Though I think your solution with the Akuma air fireballs still hitting would be far better.

[Pandaman64]

[quote=“Sablicious, post:166, topic:81296”]

http://instantrimshot.com/

You “get Ultra” if you’re a scrub. You get myriad other things if you want to expand your play, your mind and just maybe stave of Alzheimer’s a few years longer! <_<

So your logic is that games should reward us for something facile as distinct from something comparatively difficult?
What next, McDonald’s workers on a brain surgeon’s salary?! :rolleyes:

Wii-ism really has indoctrinated the feeble minds of gamers beyond the pale of reasonability. >_>

You get ultra if you land the backthrow, and if you’re playing someone GOOD, he shouldn’t be letting you do that. You should be having to work DAMN HARD for that back throw, because your opponent should know that if he gets thrown, he’ll be eating an ultra. If you’re landing back throw all over the place, try playing someone good next time.

I’m not saying execution shouldn’t be rewarded, but in all honesty it’s impossible for a fighting game to NOT reward execution. Never messing up BNBs, firing off sonic booms on the earliest possible frame, perfectly timed tickthrows, these are all things that reward execution skills, but aren’t at the heart of the game.

My logic is the game should focus on out thinking your opponent, which improves game depth, as opposed to increasing execution difficulty, which doesn’t improve anything. Making everything harder to do won’t really change it’s effectiveness, it just makes an execution gap. People shouldn’t need to spend hours upon hours in training mode, just to get to the real game. Easy to learn, hard to master, game design 101.

[Metroxylon]

Ladies and Gentlemen, I have found love on SRK.com. His name is Pandaman64. So legit.

EX Air tatsu does need a better purpose besides panic-baiting ultras. Maybe if it did a straight vertical descend. Iunno. it’s just unreliable for any sort of air-to-air. If it stays as an anti-air, give it some suction

[ElMouchoLoco]

To improve gouken he only needs ex-demon flip to be able to aim on air at will, instead of going where the game thinks he must go (and it sucks 50% time and 100% on wakeups).

-If you could use ex-demon flip to jump to the other side of the screen on a wakeup situation, all wakeup problems are solved if we have metter.

-Or if we could aim ex-demon flip to land in front of our enemy when they are up close on our wakeup, instead of landing always in their back without any posibility of hitting them.

[rebound]

http://instantrimshot.com/

So your logic is that games should reward us for something facile as distinct from something comparatively difficult?
What next, McDonald’s workers on a brain surgeon’s salary?! :rolleyes:

Just because someone doesn’t want Choice A, does not necessarily mean that they wish for Alternative Choice Q.

I don’t agree with your sentiment that not rewarding a player for a more complicated combo constitutes “skill,” because the way I see it in IV, “skill” is not necessarily one’s ability to simple link moves together. It’s also about reading the opponent and recognizing patterns, about punishing those patterns and whiffed moves properly, about managing EX meter, knowledge of the character matchup, etc.

I commend you if you can do highly skilled, complicated linking combos, but (as I’m sure you’re well aware), none of that matters if I either block my way through, or put you in a position where you can’t set up for said combo.

[Kich]

You “get Ultra” if you’re a scrub. You get myriad other things if you want to expand your play, your mind and just maybe stave of Alzheimer’s a few years longer! <_<

A troll who’s native language isn’t English yet tries desperately to throw uncommon words in to prop up the idea that he’s not 12, interesting. Kind of fail when you start throwing them in not realizing that the sentence doesn’t actually make any sense, but anyways.

More on point, I hear people who get ultra’s are scrubs. Regardless of which way you look at it as this could go either way (since he wasn’t that clear):

A: You actually attain the ability to use your ultra, this can be done through Focusing hits. To attain ultra against someone while never going below 60% health is actually very impressive and would undoubtedly be the mark of either an extremely impressive player or a player who’s flooring seriously incompetent people.

Even in the sense of taking enough damage to get your ultra, that’s not even the least bit scrubby. It’s unreasonable to assume that you could, without fail, never go below 60% life in this game against someone with any sense of competition. If you’re consistently playing people who can’t at least take a round against you at a pretty decent rate, then you’re just wasting time. What’s the point in playing if you’re only playing people who you can beat so badly that you never even get the chance to ultra them.

B: On the flip side, being ultra’d. Also an unreasonable argument to pose against someone. To say that being ultra’d in this game is the sign of a scrub is like saying that people who get shot in wars are scrubs. While it’s absolutely possible that you could be so cautious as to never give the person the opportunity to ultra you, but most likely, if they can’t land their ultra on you it’s either character related (ALA Guile) or that they’re just that predictable. Which goes back to case A, if someone is so predictable that you can without fail avoid their ultra and never let them set it up ever, the person you’re playing is far, far below you and you’re wasting your time. You don’t learn or get any better from playing someone that bad.

[DHEvil]

Sabilicious please go away forever. I’m asking you nicely, too.

[AKUMA2000]

give him a move called The Raging Angel to fuck gouki’s shit up real fast.

I think it would be cool to see gouken have a raging demon type ultra move, but instead of the opponent’s super/revenge meter filling up from the hits of gouken’s ultra it stays empty instead…or something to that effect.

[Reipin_Pillage]

Reipin pillage, it could be that technique lowering his hit box to just his feet. But also, yes there’s a way that the system identifies something as a fireball as shown by Rose’s reflect. He just needs to have massive hitboxes above and in front of him that detect helpers and negate them on touch. ^.^ Though I think your solution with the Akuma air fireballs still hitting would be far better.

You’re right about Rose and fireballs, I remember them saying it was so much work to implement her reflect because it was never planned for originally. THink it was in the last developers blog maybe…

[True_Tatsu]

i’ve gone through FBs with the dash palm, :wonder: so i take it the request is for it to be totally immune to projectiles or maybe empty trade? Sounds like a Bison PC buff to me… not sure Gouken really needs it. Maybe make Gouken’s “go through FB window” as good as Cammy’s SBF…

Rose’s reflect coding might not help in the desired effect… well perhaps the empty trade idea… if i understand it [:bluu: i probably don’t]

I really think if

• his specials [dash palm and hadou] could be canceled by his counters
• DFK could cross up on both sides
• hk and ex tatsu would start with an overhead [and slight dmg buff or 10-30 frame recovery buff on block]
• maybe a slight buff to some normals [cr.mp, cr.lk, j.mp…]

a solid played Gouken would be upper-mid tier; :rolleyes: then add 50 stamina and make gouki cry.

[Pandaman64]

i’ve gone through FBs with the dash palm, :wonder: so i take it the request is for it to be totally immune to projectiles or maybe empty trade? Sounds like a Bison PC buff to me… not sure Gouken really needs it. Maybe make Gouken’s “go through FB window” as good as Cammy’s SBF…

I really think if

• his specials [dash palm and hadou] could be canceled by his counters
• DFK could cross up on both sides
• hk and ex tatsu would start with an overhead [and slight dmg buff or 10-30 frame recovery buff on block]
• maybe a slight buff to some normals [cr.mp, cr.lk, j.mp…]

I just want to be able to hit the opponent with dash palm. I hate predicting their fireball, and going through it, only to be blocked. Terrible. Maybe just upping the dash speed would be enough, and not really upping the projectile immunity? As is, the dash punch is only a combo ender, which is useless since tatsu is our ender of choice.

As far as buffing normals go, I would very much like more block/hitstun so I could fireball from them safely. I don’t even care about 3 frame startup, just give me jab into special, like every other character in the game has.

[ShengLongAbuser]

This is all they have to do to make him a real master
-give his jumping md punch ryu attributes
-make his jab 3 frames
-give his air parry instant recovery on landing
-make him able to link without using a fierce(there are many ways but they can figure the best way)
-make his counter knock people up instead of away similar to the 2nd hit of his ex dash palm(this would open up his offense alot more and give poke artist something to think about since he has shitty pokes)

[True_Tatsu]

I just want to be able to hit the opponent with dash palm. I hate predicting their fireball, and going through it, only to be blocked. Terrible.

As far as buffing normals go, I would very much like more block/hitstun so I could fireball from them safely. I don’t even care about 3 frame startup, just give me jab into special, like every other character in the game has.

I think I understand. The dash speed should be upped just enough so he can hit his brother if mp/hp dashpalms [dp] through purple FB mid range [around half screen] and can [block string] combo with lp/mp/ex dashpalms at distance greater than tatsu.

Yeah i wasn’t after 3 frame startups either as it seems his design is clearly avoiding it [among others]. There may be a line were some normals’ block/hit stun can be increased while not OP [ie tic throw or loop link] and still enough to chain a 17 frame startup hadouken. I think mp/mk would make better choices in the long run; they [mp/mk] currently have 16 frames of stun on hit.

ShengLongAbuser
-for it :woot:
-against it :shake: would abuse
-air parry recovery same as j.any normal [not empty jump recovery]
-some mp/mk links :tup:
-ex counter could :wonder: maybe launch

just offering some feed back :china:

[Epedemic]

remove the possibility of having an air focus armor broken.