Ya, seriously “he is still good, you just need to ‘pay more attention’” is a totally empty statement. Obviously if you have to ‘work harder’ (whatever that means), he isn’t as good. But frankly, it is not about ‘working harder’ - at the upper levels of in-person play it is simply easy to read Gouken’s slow slow moves and react in plenty of time to crush them. He is not even mid-tier character. GF loops are easily stuffed (lol, even Gouken himself can stuff them with j.mp). I am not sure who you guys are playing but nearly all the cast have easy options to bust GF loops - especially now that charge characters can remain charged after blocking GF.
Its also funny how the response is ‘ya, he sucks - but don’t complain!!’ - I think the whole part of this thread is to complain.
I think I just read in this thread how somebody recommended using gouken flip parry… fyi this pretty much invalidates everything you ever write.
Gouken is cool and I like playing with him but he is not good
Really, I play M. Bison a lot now and frankly Bison was already better than Gouken and they beefed up Bison a ton in super while they weakened gouken considerably. It is bizarre.
Easy button?! Now that says it all… Some of us still like to earn our stripes son! Before the net got big , we didn’t have forums for video games.
Why back in my day sonny we had to teach ourselves how to play. No frame data , no wiki, just free time and lunch money
SRK’s aren’t foolproof, nobody said they were. But having a SRK (or similar that can hit crouching opponents) certainly gives you more options. At the very least it gives your opponent something to think about. Again, not having a quick armor-breaking move hurts here too.
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He CAN hit crouching opponents, not unless they patch it, we just need to know WHO it hits and WHO it doesn’t. Which that homework has already been done and posted.
I still don’t understand this… he’s very well rounded and when you consider he can safe jump most of the cast, it puts him on a competitive level.
I suppose so… I guess that’s a matter of opinion everyone has their pro’s and cons. Ryu is still the most efficient on the game IMO.
[quote=“starscream79, post:240, topic:88264”]
That is exactly what makes him a “bad” character. You have to work much harder and be much sharper than with other characters in a similar position. He simply doesn’t have an “easy-button” like other characters do.
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B/c he can’t herp derp that makes him bad??? I don’t understand that…
I agree with this… but for now we just need to stick to the character specific strats and just know who we can while crouching and who can’t… I still don’t see how that makes him “bad”.
I think if you are playing on a high level, you will have to “work hard” for all of your wins regardless of who you use. Just b/c you pick a Tier A character it doesn’t automatically net you a win, you still have to play the match.
This holds true for anyone not mixing it up well.
If you say so… just keep in mind that up close a lk GF looks just like a regular jump and most charge characters can’t deal with cross ups. You can also use EX GF as soon as you land and cross them up and hit confirm from there.
I actually started this thread, so I’m pretty sure I know what the intent is. Complaining that we hate the recovery on his air parry is valid… complaining that he can’t jab his way to Ultra is valid… complaining that Gouken isn’t good is just a matter of opinion and if you really felt as if he wasn’t good… why even bother using him?
This is such an absurd statement. There are a few uses for the air parry… (those who like to jump quick kick you, you can use it to land right outside of range and absorb a FB or Dhalsims longs arms, and you can use to bait and punish reversal srk’s just to name a few). Just b/c you don’t have any confidence in it, doesn’t negate it’s usefulness is certain situations. In fact every time I use it, people are like WTF… I don’t see any Goukens using that move… but it is a move that is rarely used. Maybe I’ll find a few more set ups for it.
We all have our views. He’s the only character I use, so I think he’s good. He’s not Ryu good, but he’s good.
I admit Bison vs. Gouken is a 6/4 match up for Bison… but if Bison gets knocked on his ass once he’s in trouble. Bisons, scissor kick loop is the only reason that match up is 6/4, other than that Gouken has answer for all of his shit. I’d love to face your Bison someday.
I don’t need an “easy button” to enjoy using my character. But some characters have them (Ryu has about 10 of them) and it gives them a huge boost. Alot of characters have low-risk-high-reward strats. Gouken doesn’t.
The fact that Gouken has to rely on alot of character-specific punishes and strats is a clear indication of how limited he is. Not saying the strats don’t work. But the good characters don’t have to resort to them.
When you find yourself saying stuff like “you just have to work harder” or “you just have to pay great attention to detail”, it should tell you something about the character.
The tournament data speaks for itself. There is a reason why Gouken is not well-represented at high-level tournaments. Yes, Super is still new. But Gouken is not any better than he was in vanilla (I would consider him worse) and he didn’t get used much then.
There is nothing wrong with playing for fun. I still use Gouken because I enjoy using him and because I have no intentions of ever playing in high-level tournaments. So he may very well be great for online play. But he’s not gonna cut in big tournaments.
Capcom did a great job in ensuring that no matchup is too difficult. However, it’s inevitable that some characters are going to fall in the bottom half. Do you guys really think that he is better than half the roster?
I see your point with what you’ve said, but I’m not sure where Gouken is ranked as far as the rest of the cast. I never paid too much attention to the Tiers or who’s better than who, I just know (and still learning) what Gouken can do and what advantages he has in certain match ups. I can tell you that he can safe jump and use cross ups > mix ups, to shut down more than half of the Roster. So when they are hit by an untech, they are like “oh shit here it comes”, and it can be very difficult to stop, especially when I’m guessing right and they are guessing wrong.
There are a lot of things about Gouken that I can find frustrating, especially when I’m comparing him to other characters (mainly the other shoto’s). But at the same time, he has a few advantages that the other shoto’s don’t offer. I used to main Ken and I’m still fairly decent with him, but his entire game is based on step kick > kara throw > over head > srk (or jab > srk/tatsu). That’s basically it. I stopped playing him b/c I really didn’t see the ultimate skill in this. Almost all of his moves give him a way out… Gouken’s doesn’t… I guess if that’s what makes a player bad or not, then I guess Gouken can be looked upon as a bad character.
My only struggle with looking at it this way, is Gouken shouldn’t be played like Ken, Ryu, Akuma, or who anyone else… He should be played like Gouken, and just b/c he requires a different mindset doesn’t make him a bad character, it just doesn’t make him as easy to use… but when you master the little details… boy does it feel good.
As of right now, Gouken is my second-most effective character behind Seth. And no, Gouken shouldn’t be played like other shotos, or any other character for that matter. But it doesn’t mean their options can’t be compared. I mean Gouken has a 4-frame crouching jab that is +0 on block and can’t combo into a decent combo. Meanwhile you have characters who can combo into ultra from their 3-frame jab that’s +3 on block. Then you have Gouken’s j.mp. You have to work so hard (in terms of timing) to set something up from that while so many characters can brainlessly combo out of it for good damage. The old man just can’t catch a break.
I feel you… I’ve been looking at the frame data to find and moves that are -4 or -5 on block so I can punish with lp > tatsu or cr. mp / cr. lk > tatsu. I think he is in dire need of better frame data so he can link a few more specials and normals together.
I don’t rely on j. mp too much… but you can get a 3 hit in the air or you can follow up with a multi hit super / Shin-Sho or Denjin. You can also catch them with the last few hits of a lk tatsu for added damage.
I don’t have too many problems landing the 1 hit j. mp… sometimes playing on lines screws it up, but I’ll live.
He shouldn’t be so detailed to play with, but that’s the way they made him and I like him, so I have to put up with it. I still get frustrated from time to time, b/c he can easily be considered an A Tier character with a few minor changes… this is why I say he isn’t a bad character.
I think this is why there is so much frustration with the old man sometimes. It’s not that he is bad, it’s his unrealized potential. A lot of his weaknesses seem more like oversight than purposeful decisions. That combined with his awesome character design, unique yet familiar move set, legendary status in the series’ cannon and the fact that he can be so much fun to play, and it leaves people wondering what could have been…
I think it would have been just way too cliche to make his debut as the most dominant or close to it. I thank capcom for leaving it our hands , literally to take him wherever he can go. Tournament ready? Maybe you or I could be the first?
For all the XBL heads let’s have some fun and join my mirror tourney and we can share ass whoopin’s with eachother!!!
Not really a frustration post, but moreso of a “looking at Gouken now and beginning to accept him” post.
-The dive kick changes are weird at first, but I’m finding some uses for it. Blocking it standing or crouching in itself is somewhat of a mixup now. If you block standing, I get less frame advantage on the dive kick, but you risk eating the sweep plus your hitbox is taller for my throw to land. If you block crouching, though, then I get blockstrings and can reset the situation. It’s not as powerful as the old “Guess high or low”, but it does give us something new that’s not a total nerf.
-I dislike the throw whiff nerf…but I’m learning to deal with it.
-I read c.HP got a buffed hitbox. Dunno if that’s true, but it definitely feels that way. AAing with it is noticably cleaner to me.
-Loving the better recovery on s.HK. Feels awesome to be able to throw that out on block or hit and not feel like I have to block whatever is coming next.
-Liking Denjin for the stun factor. That’s definitely nice to have.
Note, I’m not very happy with what was taken away from him, and the fact that some of his holes weren’t fixed at all…but I’m learning to accept how he is…something I didn’t do with Vanilla Gouken. It’s definitely frustrating, but what can ya do besides get better with him…?
It did, in Vanilla you couldn’t hit a jumping Blanka at point blank range with cr. fp, you had to resort to using st. cl. hk instead. Now cr. fp actually hits him when he’s doing that close jump fuck shit.
“But frankly, it is not about ‘working harder’ - at the upper levels of in-person play it is simply easy to read Gouken’s slow slow moves and react in plenty of time to crush them.”
“This holds true for anyone not mixing it up well.”
No, this is not what I mean. Even if you ‘mix it up well’ with Gouken, the GF is so slow that it doesn’t even matter.
And that thing about Bison hard knockdown…Bison has several options (i.e. several more than gouken) on wakeup and if he has EX it is no problem to get away from just about anybody in the game.
