In most tourneys everyone opts. to use a rush down character or characters with a bunch of safe moves and very few holes. That’s why you see a lot of Sagat, Akuma, Rufus, other top tier characters, people rather play with one of those characters since most of their match ups are 5/5 or better, so if they lost they can say it was their fault vs. what their opponent did to them.
People also prefer to play with some one which can just herp derp jab or cr. lk until they see something connect and they hit you with some absurd ass combo, I still think that has been a weak part of SF for years it rewards you for button mashing with little to 0 risk, Gouken doesn’t have that luxury.
Of course Gouken can counter alot of block strings but most of the chances favor your opponent. This is why I never understood why he doesn’t simply have better frame data. I’ve been punishing my opp. -4 and -5 on block moves with cr. lp / lk > tatsu and depending what’s happening online the 1 frame links can be very tough.
Given all of that, I just think some other characters are just easy to use and you can be brain-dead for the most part and still play them effectively since their general Strategies work against the entire cast. (Ryu cr. mk ~ hado)
Gouken takes work… besides the few of us, who want’s to work for their wins these days??? (Everyone would rather have someone who can just continuously assault you with some safe hit confirm/block string wash and repeat.
I’ve squared off against several high level players all with BP over 5000 and up… at the end of the day they all do the same shit… and it requires Gouken to block / tech then wait for an opening. That can be a little frustrating and not fun at times, but i just try to keep the old man out of those situations as much as possible.
But more people are starting to play with Gouken so you may see some one place very high in a tourney with him soon.
I play Gouken, indeed it takes a lot of work to win. But he is fun…
I play Guile as well, he is not fun. But he is easier to win…
However the satisfaction of winning with Gouken is a lot higher than using Guile. Gouken has some holes, but it is not as bad as some claimed to be… He can be dominant if use it well and correctly… Deep down I think can’t play Gouken defensively, he needs to rush people down to be effective
I still have the old man as my second character and I can’t help but like him. However, he is a bad character, plain and simple. Making the DF Kick a non-overhead really hurt alot and then add the throw whiff and it really killed his options. Yes, his normals are better. But that doesn’t really make up for the DF Kick alone, IMO. They took an already-limited character and made him even more limited. Ultra2 also isn’t as good as I thought it would be. I think what also hurts is that damage is reduced across the board. A character that see very few openings really needs to capitalize on them. Reducing damage really hinders that. Sure, it may only be one or two extra hits needed to make up for it. But getting those extra hits in is gonna be difficult against good players.
I am not saying he can’t be won with because that is obviously not the case. However, it seems like the good characters have tactics that are low-risk-high-reward. Gouken just doesn’t have that.
They obviously nerfed the gf kick because they saw with the added speed of the new g-dog it was overpowering. No one saw it coming, for the most part, so this leads me to believe that there are myriad things that go unnoticed collectively. That was my favorite thing about him in vanilla. Also his characterr sprite seemed to move about with a bit moRe freedom, whereas he seems to be kinda tighter and hjis range of motion seems smaller.
Overall i think all the complaining should stop it tends to reflect the true noobish nature of some in the sf world.
All in all i think after a year plus we need to either shit or get off the pot with gouken. Hes either good enough and you use him and beleive he is the true sf master and the fault falls on the gouken player when we lose, or hes broken and has no good links and its his brokenness that makes you unable to win.
So all in all im kinda tired of the " i dont main him cause hes broken" mentality, everyone seems to like bitching more than proving themsellves straight up.
I think on the characters he cannot hit with the tatsu that are crouching there are compensory exploitables we just dont look for because were preoccupied with what gouken “cant” do
Just because you are willing to admit that he’s a bad character doesn’t mean you are bitching or are trying to absolve yourself from blame. People still have to take responsibility for their play. However, if you don’t think Gouken is on the bottom half of the roster, then you are drinking some special kind of Kool-Aid.
I shouldnt have quoted yours but in general everyone , save a few of us has constant gripes about how hes not good but
They love to complain, seems like some want more credit for using a lower tier character.
Hes been a-ok for me since vanilla. Didnt need to get any changes.
Hes the only character i play…what is there to deny? Hes the only one on the roster , everone else is a customer!
Pretty much. Especially after Capcom had the ingenious idea to weaken his demon flip options. It’s pretty sad, but oh well at least he still has his relatively huge damage which can turn a match around.
LOL. Gouken is at bottom of the list, happy?
So? Go ahead main any top tier character if u wish. Nobody stopping u…
I play for fun, if “fun” to u is just abt winning and losing, then so be it.
I think gouken is “fun” becos the way he looks, his weakness, his strength, he is ryu master, and finally the way of playing Gouken is the most attractive to me…
Hell, there are a lot of top Dan players out there, on paper he is weak, so? Those people still playing Dan. Top or bottom of tier…
His wakeup game isn’t great either. Another problem is him getting his offense started, especially now that he doesn’t have an overhead option out of his DF. It’s also not just about him not being able to Ultra out of a jab, it’s him not being able to do good combos after a jab. It also doesn’t help that he has a 4-frame jab to begin with. As a projectile character he suffers because he doesn’t have a two-hit fireball without charging it up. This gets him killed against moves with armor such as Balrog’s rush punches. And speaking of armor, it would have been nice if he had a quicker armor-breaking special. Combine that with the extra frame on his jab and he is more vulnerable to focus attacks than the rest of the cast.
I am by no means saying people shouldn’t use him. I am also not saying that when I lose with him, it’s the character’s fault (I still have a long way to go). However, I don’t see why it’s such a bad thing to admit that he is a bad character. He’s still my favourite character in the game and he is still badass despite his shortcomings.
Because he doesn’t have an srk??? Yeah the other shoto’s have stronger wake up but a whiffed or reversed srk also leads to a max punish. I think it hurts the most vs. command grabbers esp. Zangief, wanting to jump in on your wake up. I can see how that is a challenge for these types of match ups having a strong footsie and block string game is needed.
I’ve been using alot of option selects and ending my strings with either. cr. roundhouse, cr. fp > hado, or cr. fp > GF loop again and I try to keep pressuring and mixing it up from there. I sometimes throw the EX verison in there if I think they will srk or something so I can full punish, once you land a couple of those it forces them to block so you can GF Grab them or keep them in the loop. I also try to mix in a d + mk on their wake up every now and then to try to catch them blocking low.
Yeah this sucks, but to compensate I’ve just been going through the frame data of each character and finding anything that -4 or -5 on block so I can punish with lp > tatsu. This way you still can FADC to Ultra. For example a few of Dudley’s Rush Punches gives you this opportunity. His EX Machine Gun Buff also has a window for a cr. fp > bnb on his recovery, or you can hit him with a Tatsu.
His Fireball game is to bait, zone, pin down in the corner, or force your opponent to jump or to do something risky to get in close. You can throw Balrog out of his rush punches, but the best option if available is to jab / cr. mp > tatsu (EX preferably) but that way you can break his armor and then punish him. You also have the option to bait Balrog’s rush punch with a FB and then Ultra his ass on your recovery. Depending on which punch he does he can also be kongo’ed or focus attacked on the rush punch. His Kongo can beat a LVL 2 focus and you also have the luxury to Armor Cancel it for an Ultra if they try to hit you with it on wake up. Other than that, if they are charging up right in front of you it’s a free back throw.
I don’t think he’s a bad character, he just requires more attention to detail than many of the other characters on the game.
Instead of have one general strategy that works against everyone, Gouken has match up specific strategies and I don’t think that’s such a bad thing b/c that tells me that he is versatile.
Now I STILL believe that Tatsu should = SRK, and he should have better links > normals and specials. If Tatsu = SRK this would solve his wake up woes and the fact that his fireball doesn’t hit twice. Maybe Capcom will wake up one day and patch him up.
Its kind of like a pride thing for us old men. And like an old man gouken shouldn’t be fast, lightning quick, that’s for the young cats. You want combos from jab? Vs sagat he can get of a 7 hit poke I bet you’ve never seen before. So I suggest you get to work. Have some pride and leave the bad character rhetoric with your fight pad… In the closet!
He sure is. It’s just certain rules to every match up… for example why in the hell would you neutral jump a shoto on their wake up??
On another note, Where Tatsu doesn’t hit, st. cl hk will. Can you say meaty Denjin??? That shit is the greatest vs. Dhalsim…
I don’t think most Gouken’s really understand how to jump start his offense… I think he can be played offensively or defensively if you can master his Gouken Flip set ups along with some strong block strings. I sometimes take the training dummy and set the block to random. And I just go crazy! Keeping the Vortex going… one blocked or whiffed cr. roundhouse ends the cycle.
Ahh yes- After the crouching roundhouse>>>>> THIS is where you choose to jump start your offense… do you kongo, back dash, look to cr. fp (almost always win esp. as anti air) and here is the most important secret of all to jump start your offense or to get back to a comfy position. When you use cr. fp try to master using these while poking and as anti air if applicable.
c. lk ~ hado / GF
c. mp ~ hado / GF
cr. mk ~ hado / GF (if used as Anti Air charge Hado for meaty)
cr. fp ~ hado / GF (if used as Anti Air charge Hado for meaty)
You can also use to mix up the different hado’s to play mind games.
Once you get him going, you just keep them in the loop. You can use mk GF to make shoto’s whiff SRK’s, or use the air parry, you can also switch up and use regular jump, d + mk, and go for cross ups and ambiguous cross ups, while mixing that in with your GF loop. If you feel like it’s not working block string out to zone and to EX GF over there to do it again.
Gouken’s just not restricted to throwing fireballs, you CAN rush them down if you know the match up. The rules are pretty much the same except for the shoto’s, and command grabbers. Other than that, everyone else is Free Lunch. (I’m still working on Dee Jay)
SRK’s aren’t foolproof, nobody said they were. But having a SRK (or similar that can hit crouching opponents) certainly gives you more options. At the very least it gives your opponent something to think about. Again, not having a quick armor-breaking move hurts here too.
Not saying he doesn’t have options. But his options are limited when compared to the “good” characters or even average characters.
Again, I am not saying he has no options. Other characters simply have more and better options.
That is exactly what makes him a “bad” character. You have to work much harder and be much sharper than with other characters in a similar position. He simply doesn’t have an “easy-button” like other characters do.
Even if they left Tatsu as punishable as it is now, so long as it could hit crouching opponents it would make a world of difference.