Dizzy, Slayer, and a couple other characters WOULD more than likely be fucked if Eddie knocked them down.
BUT, Ky/Axl/Sol/Bridget aren’t the only one’s who can get out.
Slayer might be able to get out with his 0-start up super, which hits high and would trade/out prioritize Zato’s kick, but probably miss little eddy
Johnny’s Super would probably hit Zato too, breaking the chain.
Slayer can also probably cancel a tele-jump real fast, maybe, or the mappa punch. Or d-step out of shark range.
Also, Chipp’s blade would take him up and out of unblockable range, not necessarily making him completely safe, but it would remove the threat of unblockable.
So eddie doesn’t instantly defeat ALL char’s via knockdown.
And what about against Venom? Or Slayer? He has to actually knock them down first, which isn’t exactly easy.
Anyways, just stuff to think about. It’s like saying Slayer=Win because one command grab = win.
Wasn’t saying that it was a guaranteed win, just trying to point out how his comment about any character being able to deal with any situation was flawed.
I’m pretty sure that Johnny’s super would hit Eddie and get nullified, leaving him open. Not sure about tele-jump or any of Slayer’s options.
I mean, he’s not unbeatable, but there’s a reason Eddie is constantly touted as top.
Well, I can’t argue for Dizzy well enough since I don’t play her. I dunno… maybe if she can get air-borne and FD, but then I don’t think any character can hit the air instantly from a knockdown.
Does that flame OD she has have zero start-up. I think it might.
(not trying to argue, just wondering)
Dunno. Even so, doesn’t help if she has no Tension.
Meanwhile, Eddie is goin’ all crazy on you with practically no need for Tension since he’ll build up all he needs in the first half of his doom combo. Too good. :lol:
dash back, maybe, but Eddie will have pushed you into corner by then.
All I’m saying is, Eddie doesn’t nearly enough “over powering” match-ups to be consider top tier. In any given tourny, there are a thousand Sol’s, all whom can do really well against Eddie, so Eddie’s likely to be taken out.
The only char’s that don’t see a lot of tourny play are Jam, Chipp, May, and Zappa
Even Pot see’s tournies. And wouldn’t a wake-up pot buster grab Zato? Or would it bounce off Eddie? And the Super jump thing he has, or his hammer punch. Or hammer fall. Both soak two hits, at least stopping the eddie part of the combo, which is all that is REALLY important, since the eddie part deals the most damage.
If timed perfectly, no. The second you get up, that shark is in your face. You take the hit, pretty much. This is also the same reason why Johnny’s Mist Trap in GGX worked: technically you could dash back, but if the Johnny player timed the c.HS just meaty enough, you had to block it, and then you died.
If f+P with Baiken could break Eddie’s trap, then everyone could break the trap. Not enough invulnerability, and it’s all upper-body, meaning no protection from the kick, which is low. And since the shark and kick are supposed to hit at the exact same time, you won’t be able to defend against it.
The super I will give you, but like I said, you need to get the tension first, and you won’t build up enough of it being hit by that combo. Also, take into account that the first hit of the super will hit Eddie most likely, which will give the main body plenty of time to block the rest and punish, or even dodge it. Nets him a free combo or command grab, which puts you back on the ground; not where you want to be.
Another thing is that Eddie can bait your reversal. Characters who have a reversal can be baited into it, and will usually get severely punished if they take the bait. If you take the bait, usually you will only hit Eddie and that leaves you wide open to be countered by the main body.
Rob: A lot of stuff regarding tiers is theory. You look at the character’s tools and base the tiers off of that, along with how often they see tournament play. In practice, it’s affected by which characters people like and which ones are easier to use. Theoretically, Eddie is the best character in the game because he gets one-hit kills off of knockdowns against the majority of the cast. Sol is popular since he’s an easier character to pick up and can still deal out the damage, but by and far Eddie has better tools for the job. He just takes a little more work, and is thus a rarer pick in tournies, especially in Japan where it’s a single-elimination, one-shot deal; you really can’t afford to fuck up at all. In that case, you would rather go with a character that is easier to play. Tiers only apply to the situation where you have two players of relatively equal skill, in which case the higher-ranked character will get the larger number of wins.
That’s part of what annoys me about the tiers argument, because a lot of conflict over it comes from misunderstanding what tiers are, thinking they’re some universal chart that says “anyone can pick this character and win”. No, that’s bullshit. Saying Eddie is top tier doesn’t mean he will beat everyone all the time. It simply means if I were to fight someone of equal skill and I picked Eddie, I’d have a better chance of winning. That’s why people are wrong when they say that there are “no tiers”, because that would require there being absolutely no differences between the characters. Some characters are always gonna be easier to learn or easier to win with (sometimes both).
Oh a lighter note, I still disagree with you. Since, you said yourself, he gets a one-hit-kill on wake-up against the majority of the cast. But he doesn’t.
He doesn’t kill Sol. He doesn’t kill Axl. Or Bridget. Or Ky. Or Chipp. Or Slayer. Or maybe even Jam (Her forward flaming kick will dodge the low hit entirely, and probably trade with the standing.), Or Baiken (If her super thing holds true). Or Johnny (who will trade and stop the combo). Or Testament (Whose gravedigger will dodge the low and hit Zato, maybe. If not he could web to break the combo, since Zato will get briefly stopped, long enough for Testament to recover). Or Faust, who can Scalpel, and trade with the low, but dodge the high, thus rendering moot advantage). Or Milla, because she also seems to be top tier, and wins a good bit, so surely SHE has something. Venom’s rising sweep might cancel it. Potemkin’s pot-buster might grab Zato.
I mean, and hear me out, that’s all theory, but so’s you’re “You’ll have no tension, and you’ll have no burst”.
Why? What have I been doing in this time to waste a burst and get a negative penalty?
Zato -still- has to get in, which on Bridget/Venom is hard enough as is, same with Faust and Testament, all with things that can slow/stop Eddie. Not to mention Slayer, whose hit’s out prioritize Zato’s body, and that’s just Slayer.
How does Zato rush in on Ky? Venom? Bridget?
How does he trade with the poor man’s Zato, Zappa? Zappa with a dog is just like Eddie with a shadow.
I don’t buy into the tiers, because out of the top 12 chars in SBO, only two were Eddie. There wasn’t an Eddie per team. Not a milla per team. Not a Sol per team.
Yes, if Zato gets that ONE combo, he wins, and that’s great.
Slayer lands ONE bite grab, he wins. That doesn’t make him top tier.
Your logic, though well ment, has a lot of solid flaws, and like I said, in my opinion, there are no tiers.
someone told me (i think it was tragic) that this awesome slayer in japan was consistenyl getting out of wakeup traps with the backdash. maybe the people setting up the traps were off by microseconds, but still, that’s gotta be a plus for slayer players.
Indeed, the point seems to have flown right over Rob’s head. Whatever.
Rob, I know you’re joking, but try to refrain from the gay crap. I’m trying to remain respectful and keep this a serious argument, so please do the same.
If the person playing Eddie knows how to play him and do his wakeups correctly, you’re not going to get out of it with a freakin’ Grave Digger. You need invulnerability, and aside from the four I’ve mentioned before, no other character can get that invulnerability without using an overdrive. That’s not good because you’re not going to spend the match building up 50% just in case you get knocked down. Most people won’t have the tension because you’re constantly putting it to some use, whether it’s FD or RC/FRC. The only really universal way out is to Burst, and what if he baits your Burst? You get fucked.
And exactly how many good Eddie players have you seen? In all honestly. I know you play in Japan, but some of the things you say are downright odd. Hard to get in? I understand on Faust, that’s his counter character, but Bridget and Venom? Testament? Not really. He’s mobile enough to get in on them, and he’s no slouch at range games himself, since he can attack from afar using Eddie without risking anything. Add in Invite Hells for space control, and Eddie can often be a hard character to close in on. His only real weak point is when he’s on the defensive and you’re close to him. So even if he’s at range versus those characters, he’s not exactly disadvantaged, and it’s not that hard for him to work his way in. I’m also pretty certain that Eddie’s c.S will beat most of Slayer’s good pokes, it has a tad more range than his s.K and comes out faster than his s.S. He can reflect Ky’s projectiles back at him and again, his main poke is better than Ky’s. And Zappa shouldn’t even be much of an issue, even with the dog (who isn’t that great). Well-timed IH will take that doggy out, and Zappa’s got shit for poking.
Yeah, if Slayer lands one grab, he wins. He’s not top tier because he can’t compensate otherwise. Eddie is very well-rounded. He’s reasonably mobile, good space control, and excellent offense. He’s good at practically any range, as long as he’s on the offensive. Slayer is a wait-and-counter type. He’s not as flexible. So it’s harder for him to get his juice going.
This is exactly why I didn’t want to get into this with you. Playing in Japan makes you biased towards tiers in the first place because of the Japanese and the way they play. They pick who they like, and they don’t take the game that seriously. This doesn’t mean that there are no tiers, hell, some of the best Japanese players who came to Evolution last year told tragic what the tiers were over there at the time, so they obviously think there are tiers.
And again, despite what you think, how easy a character is to use WILL be a factor in a tournament. Think about it. When you’re going into a really high-stress competitive situation, who would you rather be playing? Venom’s a great character, but he takes incredible execution and mindgames to play well. It’s way too easy to mess up on just one thing in execution. Meanwhile, you’ve got Sol, who isn’t that hard when it comes to the execution part, and all you have to worry about is the mindgame. That’s a big factor.
I am, in all seriousness, done with this argument. I’m not willing to go any further into it, as it can only get worse from here on out.
I fail to see how my disagreeing with Beef of Flavour points to my lack of reading abilities. Maybe my disagreement with The BoFster means I’m and idiot, because BoFster is perfect and right, and for me to disagree with him means I obviously didn’t read what he said, because no sane man could have read the Book of BoF and held any disagreement.
Or you could be a jackass. I argue with BoF because it pushs theory, strategy, and the boundaries we set.
Well Rob, it’s because the main point of my first argument keeps missing you, it seems. Like I said, I posted that first thing because what the guy said about every character being able to deal with every situation was just plain WRONG. I was just giving him an example of that. Meanwhile it turns into this huge argument about tiers and whatnot that I honestly had no real intention of getting into because said arguments are always a HEADACHE. They get really heated because opinions clash and sometimes feelings can get hurt. If I had done what I had promised myself beforehand and refrained from even posting in this thread, then it wouldn’t have happened.
You’re not really pushing any boundaries. You live in Japan, and yet you argue semantics up the wazzoo. That, and BoF’s entire point went WOOOOOSH over your marine sized noggin.
Biased for being in Japan? Psh. That should make me an elitist, and I’m not. Anyways, I guess maybe your point DID fly over my head, but mine’s not sinking home either amigo
And sorry for goofing off, it’s just my way of letting you know don’t take anything I’m saying personally, just that I’m having a friendly little theory discussion that I think it hella keen.
Onto the post!
I wasn’t trying to say you could interupt Eddie’s entire game with a simple move like a gravedigger. I was more so thinking along the lines of lessing the damage.
See, if you destroy the Eddie (which can be done if your char has enough priority I guess, I don’t seem to have too much problems with it), then you weaken the overall combo and give yourself more breathing space. See what I ment now? He goes from being a one-hit-kill to a “knock down = pain in the ass” type situation.
Ok, I still disagree with your no tension no burst. Granted, he CAN bait your burst, but this is not only hard to do, but also not garunteed.
When I play Eddie, I’m always paranoid of knockdown. Any smart player should be. Just like they should be worried about a bite grab, or a dust loop. Never go into the match un-prepared.
You’re saying I’d use burst or tension for something else, but I play Slayer amigo. What do I need tension for? Like, one RC combo? And that combo deals almost as much as Eddie’s combo anyways? The point there is moot. I’d forgo the RC combo if I was having knock-down problems, because I wouldn’t want to be in a situation where I was potentially fuct.
Same with burst. I wouldn’t burst on wake-up. I’d burst after he set the combo, somewhere near the middle probably, like after he set the bomb or whatever. Why? Less risk of getting baiting once he’s commited. I’m not saying your theory is wrong, just a little flawed in assuming people come unprepared. You’re right, in a single elemination tourny, you HAVE to be prepared to face anyone.
Also, I’d like to touch on your invite hells, because this is probably your most flawless statement. They DO suck to have done to you, and DO control space VERY well. I have constant pains with my Slayer against them, but as long as you’re not in a corner, you’re not trapped.
Eddie IS mobile, I’ll give you that much, but he doesn’t have distance. I can not COUNT the time’s I’ve FD’d an attempt to push me back and zone with Eddie, and 2K’d eddie in response to buy some time. You just have to think ahead, which is very important in this game.
As for Bridget and Venom, both oppurate on lock down, so the question is, who locks who down first? It’s like Slayer vs Sol. It’s a fairly even match, only being lop-sided once actual offense is set. That’s why I said it was hard to get in, because one screw up puts Eddie on the defensive, which as you said, is his weakness. He’s can’t call and attack with Eddie through Razor Rogers and Ball’s, because they hit eddie and stop the little monster.
I never ment to sound like there are no tiers, there are. Learning tiers, and damage tiers, like I’ve discussed else where, but I don’t think any character has a win button, or at least, no obviously so like MvC2. I hope that clears it up somewhat, and you’re right too in the fact I have a Japanese “Any char can be good” mindset, but it’s tempered with American realism because I’ve SEEN obvious tiers. I do not see them in GGXX, yet.
Erm, it’s impossible to disagree with your statement on the learning curve effecting tourny play. But that’s also my counter arguement. Eddie has a bad match up in Sol, in my opinion, because Sol plays where Eddie’s weak, builds tension fast enough to rarely have to worry about not having any, and has invincible wake up.
Anyways, please don’t give up on me! I enjoy discussing theory with you.
You don’t seem to understand that the very first hit after the knockdown IS the unblockable. What use is tension once you’re knocked down?
And we’re not talking Slayer vs Eddie exclusively, the whole cast encounters problems.
And don’t even think about wake-up supers, because they’re so easy to bait.
