Honestly, mikes fireball trap is godlike vs fei. That’s why I use fse in this match up. I blow their flame kick or chicken wing up and activate. They will block if they’re smart. Now it’s time to play hop scotch and hula hoop on they’re face.
Don’t let him chicken wing ever. Stuff 100% of them. Stay outside of rekka range and far mk. C mk to footsies isn’t too smart IMO. Rekka wins.
Fei long can do a lot of damage on a kd vs juri. His mix up is good. You can’t let him in. Keep him out, or pressure… Just know when to bait flame kick
Well, you pretty much just said what I was thinking anyway, minus the fireballs traps haha. The problem is, whenever I say that, it doesn’t seem to work out for people, it’s like they’re playing mystical Fei Long players who counter everything and land 100% of their combos all the time like they’re Mago or something.
I prefer Ultra 2 against Fei personally, because if he Wings and I notice it, that’s a free Ultra. That’s not the only reason though.
This is pretty much how I fight against Fei.
I don’t hang back trying to fireball him out near a corner because I feel you’re making one of his jobs(putting you in the corner) easier, since Fei’s Rekka puts you in there pretty quickly if he connects with it. I try to establish a mid-range game and poke with normals like far st.mk, far st.mp, st.lk, etc. All start up faster than Rekkas so they all have the potential to stuff it, plus they have good range too.
Like you said, stay out of Rekka range. If the Fei whiffs his Rekka, or isn’t too smart and whiffs his Rekkas all over the place frequently, whiff punish it, sweep, cr.mk, whatever, just don’t let him get away with it. And when I feel I have the advantage, mount an offence.
Wing, cr.mp, cr.hp it if you see it. Far st.mk and far st.mp can stuff it from afar. Fei has very annoying traps, combined with his Tenshin grab, which he can tick into with a jab, makes it all the more annoying. EX Senpusha can be grabbed by Tenshin too. So, I either do the usual block and sparing crouch tech, TK Dive to get reset or beat out the grab.
If he puts your in the corner or puts you in pressure, well, time to block lol. If the Fei isn’t good at spacing his Rekkas, the first hit can be punished with anything that starts up in 4 and below, so that’s a cr.lk link usually.
Against Fei’s normals, not too familiar with them. I know his cr.hp is good, but laggy if it whiffs. I don’t know about his other normals, I need to look into them more.
No question Yun is going to be hard to deal with (though some said Yang would be tougher). He seems to have really great frame traps and counter tools. But as we can see in this video, Juri’s cr.hp seems like a very good option select counter for the dive kick. Not sure if cr.mp would work also (I’m pretty sure it trades).
Yun’s crouching light punch seems as good as Juri’s close standing light kick. After blocking the first hit, I would probably try a Kasatushi to escape the second one or an ex pinwheel to punish/counter. Back dashing + lk pinwheel could also be an option.
About his mix ups, I know I would have a hard time teching his cr.lk x2 into throw. He doesn’t even need to walk that much he can already grab you after those 2 hits!
Also, Yun has 2 moves that can bypass Juri’s projectiles and set up his ultra/super so be aware of it. Just like when you fight a Dudley, you don’t want to throw your projectile from too close. Actually even from far away throwing projectiles at Yun looks pretty dangerous if you have recovery.
That’s his main AA and wake up reversal. A good thing to keep in mind!
Nisshoukyaku reminds me of Guy’s tornado kick: easily baitable and avoidable with cr.mk. I’m pretty sure FSE should be the ultra of choice just because his weak wake up options.
Yet another important thing to know. You don’t have to stand up to block his dive kicks.
And since Yun has to reach a certain height before doing his dive kick, I think Juri could escape it with a quick dash under. Other options of evasion could be:
It’s clear that the palm move is Yun’s favorite meter builing tool. Instant hk dive kick could probably hit in time if you are well positionned. But I’m guessing empty jumping could also bait one of his special moves.
Storing mk/hk fuhajin seems like a good idea vs a character that likes to dive kick so much.
1:45 - random ultra after Juri gets hit by the dive kick. Actually thought that was a good read. Knowing that Yun would immediatly go to town with his frame trap mixups after the dive kick. That’s something to think about: Yun players seem to like pressing lots of buttons when they are close. So ex senpusha, ex kasatushi and ultra 2 are good punish options.
Big Ups for Ryuga as he did the effort of collecting ALL the info in the old Matchup Thread (it was a 16 page File LOL). so yeah thats all in the front page now and if you want to add something to it or something adjusted let me know.
I’m currently collecting all the Fei info that was talked about for like 3 pages a while ago, I’m gonna put it together in a nice readable way and put it all in the front page.
@Vulcan Hades: Good stuff bro, I added your info to the front page. We do need some stuff on Yun
i did a big detailed write up on the juri vs dhalsim match up in 3 posts in the video thread … you’ll find it in the last page or 2 … talking about the match up in general , dealing with slides , and dealing with teleports…
would u like me to repost it here ? or would u just get it from there ?
-Stay far and zone her, or rush her down like crazy.
-She can’t do much from far away unless she super jumps. You can absorb her seismic hammers and flame kicks with FADC or kasatushi.
-You can punish a flame kick on reaction with Ultra 2, cr.mp, forward jump hp/mp, or senpusha.
-Exploit her weakness vs air attacks. She doesn’t have reliable anti-airs.
-You can avoid and even stuff her wake up reversal with cr.mk.
-Sekku can counter hit or even jump over Viper’s Thunder Knuckle (LP version).
-Viper’s overhead and cross-up flame kick whiffs if you cr.mk.
-From up close Viper can be deadly. She has powerful frame traps and mixups. So backdash whenever you feel too much pressure. Or try an ex senpusha to punish if opponent presses a lot of buttons.
Ultra of choice: FSE because of Viper’s weak wake up options.
vs Fei Long
[media=youtube]FY605oayEi8[/media]
This one’s tough to deal with. You don’t wanna stay close to this guy. Also, never try to Focus Absorb from too close. Fei Long is too fast!
-use kasatushi instead of FA to get out of his rekka traps.
-Use fuhajins to zone Fei Long, build meter and bait his Chicken Wings.
-Try to bait his flame kicks when he’s down. Use option selects.
-Abuse Sekku and far st.hk around sweep range to hop over his crouching fierce.
-Fei’s overhead can be countered with cr.mp or avoided with cr.mk
-You can punish Chicken Wing on reaction with Ultra 2.
Ultra of choice: You can go with either. FSE could bait Fei’s ultra 2 and his flame kicks. Ultra 2 is guaranteed and can severly punish a baited Flame Kick or Chicken Wing.
That’s alot of training dummy scenarios in your vids not so much anything actually helpful. Also FA is a must to counter rekkas, don’t give out dodgy info like that, if u use counter u risk getting CW and if he rekkas a second time it would probably catch your teleport.
There was some interesting things in there. I think that (no offense) most of the situations you shown were (as mike said) training dummy scenarios. Some were valid…because of the fact that Kasatushi still confuses people and are surprised by it.
Viper: All of the things you showed with overheads beating moves, or flame kicks getting stuffed by moves are cool but in a match…vipers not going to throw them out willy nilly. A lot of times flame kicks are guarded by block stun, which reduces your ability to counter back…forcing you to block (and hopefully incorrectly). More often than not my c.mp is beaten by cross up burn kicks, and my c.hp is just stuffed as i dont have enough frame advantage to react. Furthermore, you can NOT overhead a lp knuckle. (I know you can) but NO ONE SHOULD BE DOING THIS. This is strictly like "oh whoops, cant believe that worked) stuff. Same with the overhead. You risk getting hit and getting put back in mix up. just block it and work from there. If you see it coming, a s.lp (as you showed) might be a better option
I think the most important thing that you could have shown vs viper is option selecting. It really destroys her. throw that in there from time to time and you’ll stop viper from reversalling bringing in the chance to corner her and do it all over again.
Ultimately take what you saw this this video (to anyone whos watching), and try it for yourself in real situations. (ex. c.hp xx feint > overhead, or or Ex Hammer xx SJC xx Burn kick). Find at what distances you can use things, or what strength attacks you can use.
Showing us specials randomly and stuffing them is like saying “oh I can block a SRK!!!”
Fei: This match up you have to address more sophisticatedly(sp?). Yes, you can Kasatushi rekka. Yes, you can FA rekka. But why not address the problem with rekka…you dont have to leave a gap in between, you’re blocking and rekka comes out fast you can frame trap yourself. Just block it and get ready.
Chicken Wing a problem. Its so odd. Some punishes work sometimes, other times it doesnt. Example…Fei can Ex Chicken Wing and NOT get hit by Ultra 2. Why? Because shes really low to the ground and he flys RIGHT over her. Sometimes his hit box destroys hers when trying to c.mp because her vulerability box is behind her and chicken wing crosses up. And this doesn’t show the problem that we have when chicken wing is used as a reversal.
Mike, would you be so kind to post your video on your fireball trap vs Fei Long again?
This is actually the best way to deal with fei long on knock down IMO. Ive used it and its godlike. The first 2 times the player thought dumb luck…the 3rd time it happened the player went “Kail are you making that happen?”
Kail: :3
This video doesnt address his corner pressure, as Juri HAS NO ANSWER for this other than blocking and making a good read.
I think its a great idea but it needs work. It something I wanted to work on after I get back from winter brawl. Maybe we can partner up or soemthing on this matter.
I’m on my iPod so I’ll post it later. It’s an ok setup my only beef is that Its a small dmg punish, 110 with far hk if they ex or hk CW. Fei punishs for too much, best thing to do in footsies is throw cr.mp/mk into neutral space and OS pinwheel or fireball store with it, but the problem with that is if u catch a CW and ur special comes out he just punishes on reset… The matchup is just dumb.
i have to say this…
yes i agree that they are all training dummy senarios, however ALOT of the stuff posted in those 2 vids are very applicable mid match in my opinion, some of it is suicide but otherwise good stuff.
i think i agree with mike n kail on most of what they said especially vs feilong… using juris counter is a death wish in this match… FA is a 100 times safer. vs. viper i would go more for juri’s EX counter because of its quick startup and the ability to do it on reaction unlike the regular one which can be baited quite regularly.
i particularly liked the dash under c.vipers overhead. however i wouldnt take the risk with your feilong overhead punishes. simply because you usually dont see it coming if it was a good feilong and you only have enough time to block (cr.MP although great would endup being stuffed or traded if not timed right). heres what i have on it in my personal notes:
feilong overhead punish: (-4 on block)
block, cl.LK, MK or EX senpusha (2 frame window)
block, cl.LP cr.LP, LK fuhajin, FADC, combo (FA and followup whiff) (1 frame window)
but in general alot of those punishes acctually do work with enough experience with the match ups. so good job !
I actually didnt notice how unsafe his overhead was, cheers for that.
Hotaru posted a decent setup ive had success with a couple of times which was:
Forward throw in corner > Backdash > Mk fireball store + release > st.mp > Cr.mk
Mk fireball covers normals and his Dps, the st.mp moves you closer and hits him out of CW, the cr.mk starts corner pressure (you need a exfireball though) and combos off of the mk fireball if it hits but the whole setup has to be executed flawlessly.
[media=youtube]ShxU6beJazk[/media]
I only show one setup in that, it works with sweep and then ex low fireball, you need to place yourself properly after sweep though, and fast, it would probably be easier to do once we get the walkspeed buff in AE. You can try do the same on regular KDs they dont tech, just try and place yourself properly. Only really works with a lk fireball, mostly because you have to make them think that a CW will work and you run the risk of missing your meaty mk one.
Off a forward throw it isnt worth doing really, its too hard to cover all the CW’s, best going for other regular forward throw setups.
If he doesnt CW or Reveral DP on wakeup though theres not much you can do after, youre at neutral frames with him usually because of the timing that you need to dash forward (you need to do it once hes off the floor as opposed while hes on the floor).
Yeah sorry I know my vids didn’t cover everything and is mostly dummy scenarios. But I was just brainstorming/exploring different ideas. It’s all to take with a grain of salt.
Glad my vids at least made a few people react and correct me. That’s why I’m doing this in the first place.
Probably? Nah.
If you use MP counter, Juri gets too far away from Rekka reach. And she would still be able to react to a Chicken Wing. If it baits a Chicken Wing, then it’s a good thing imo.
If you go for a LP counter, then you end up behind Fei. So if he then immediatly goes for another Rekka, it won’t hit you because he is facing the wrong direction to start with.
I’m just saying everytime I tried to FA Fei I end up eating a second Rekka or something else. Even if I backdash after I focus absorb, Fei is so fast he is right in my face again. So that’s why I prefer to use counter. I feel it’s a lot safer than FA in this matchup. Of course vs Viper I use FA a lot because it builds up meter and FSE is so good vs her.
Maybe not “tourney Vipers”, I know they play a lot smarter. But a lot of Viper players online will. And one thing I wanted to show is the different ways you can punish a burn kick on reaction. A lot of newbies are scared of that move so I wanted to show it really isn’t that scary to start with.
And that’s why I showed that Kasatushi is a good option to get away from an ambiguous burn kick. When you are not sure what direction to block or when you don’t have enough frame advantage to counter.
Completely forgot about it. But as I’m sure most of you are already aware of it, cr.mk can make chicken wing whiff (but not his flame kick so beware). If you’re going to cr.mk on Fei’s wake up I suggest doing it from a certain distance where Fei would not dare try a random Flame Kick.
That set up is great I agree.
One thing I tried to show in my video is that storing a fuhajin can bait chicken wings (especially ex version). So that’s another thing to keep in mind. I agree CW has a weid hitbox and is sometimes really hard to punish and it often depends on distance. But if you have good reaction, pinwheel FADC ultra 2 is decent punish. though EX senpusha is safer. Of course you don’t go for those if you are too close from fei when he does the CW. If you are too close, dashing under or going for a cr.mk are the best options imo.
Also, about the overheads in general:
What I wanted to show in my vid, is that when you stay crouched, you can bait overheads. The more you crouch in a match, then the more tempting it is for your opponent to use his overhead normal. Of course Juri can use cr.mk to escape airborne overheads. But my point is: If you have good enough reaction to stand up and block an overhead in time, then you have good enough reaction to counter hit punish an overhead on reaction. Which could lead to much more damage in the end.
Anyway, thanks for correcting me where I was wrong. I might redo those videos and add all the missing information you just provided me.
Played some more casuals with Nev tonight, think im progressing abit with Fei Long but its still hard as shit. Whenever i score a backthrow that puts me near the corner its like fuck it ill Hk Dive kick over him and away, screw setups and momentum the corner is NOT where i want to be.
Fireball wars are interesting at times, you can try bait Ex Cw by throwing a few, then do store to Nj randomly somewhere in there in anticipation of a CW, if they take the bait you get a decent punish.
I also played Desk’s Chun, nothing to far out and difficult, its pretty much go through the standard Chun Li motions of zoning her, except if he hits you theres a chance you get put into a 40+ hit combo which can be annoying to sit through. Chun at times has trouble on wakeup, i get by baiting reversals by neutral jumping as they wakeup and hitting ex bird kick with nj.hk on the way down, after that you can OS sweep and all that to cover backdashs, safejumps are cool too. Chun has a nice hitbox for FSE, you can tag her with far.hp at times if shes standing which is really good damage, you just need to setup the far.hp with a previous far.mk.
Back to Fei Long, I did more testings for fun. Actually, I wanted to test out certain scenarios that Metallicmike pointed out:
[quote=EMPEROR_COW
]
using juris counter is a death wish in this match… FA is a 100 times safer.
[/quote]
I wasn’t sure about it so I went to training mode to check it out. Just to see what were the possible outcomes.
[media=youtube]Oav4SlJuFkU[/media]
1st scenario: Fei Long goes for consecutive rekkas.
2nd scenario: Rekka into Chicken Wing (ex and non ex versions).
Things I learned:
Focus Attack:
-Level 1 Focus Attack and backdash AFTER you hit. If Fei goes for a second Rekka, your FA will crumple him (counter hit).
-Never backdash before you actually release your FA. Unless you are absorbing a Chicken Wing from far away.
LP Kasatushi:
-This version puts you behind Fei but much closer to him. From this distance, HK/EX CW whiffs if you stay crouched. Only LK and MK versions of Chicken Wing can hit you while you are crouched.
-Because you are closer, you have less time to react to his CW. Also the chances of trading are greater.
-Because you are closer, Fei Long has less time reacting to you! So this could actually be good to bait flame kicks or frame trap him.
MP Kasatushi:
-You get hit by the third Rekka if you use this on the second Rekka.
-You are perfectly safe if you use it on the very first or last Rekka, no matter the spacing when you performed the kasatushi. You are still able to block and even counter the other Rekkas.
-Fei has a bit of recovery after he whiffs a Rekka so he can’t immediately jump into Chicken Wing. So you have a lot of time to react to it.
All in all, CR.MP, far ST.MK and CR.MK turned out to be the safer options to both scenarios (whether Fei goes for CW or another Rekka, these normals can beat both).
CR.HP and far ST.HP work best on CW for obvious reasons. Far ST.HK is too slow so I recommend only using it after a MP Kasatushi.
vs Chicken Wing, NJ.HK is pretty good but you pretty much have to anticipate it if you are close.
For CW punishment on reaction:
(backdash if too close) EX pinwheel
forward J.MP xx your juggle of choice
backward J.MP (when Fei just landed so late jump) xx LK Dive Kick xx Ultra 2/pinwheel
Backdash xx Ultra 2 (max damage)*
LK pinwheel xx FADC xx Ultra 2
Backward J.MP, forward J.MP, close ST.HP xx Super (only works when you are near the corner, you need to hit Fei dead center, land early and jump up again)
Backward J.MP, EX dive kick xx Ultra 2 (alternate version of the one above)
Those were the best damage wise.
*Ultra 2 whiffs completely if you don’t backdash first or LK Senpusha FADC. EX/HK/MK Chicken Wing crosses over and Fei ends up behind you.
The focus attack thing is pretty universal, its like how to deal with Fei 101, which is why i said its better. I think you misunderstood when i said you risk getting CW if you counter, what i meant was he can punish your counter (before teleport) with CW, and that can lead to 400 dmg if his exectution is godlike, while as if you FA you can at least backdash to make yourself airborn so he doesnt get the full combo.
U2 doesnt whiff at the right distance, you have to be standing at CW’s full range, which is where you want to be standing anyway to bait them while throwing fireballs, every now and again do store > wait, to make sure to AA if he jumps or NJ if he wings. Though he can quite easily get in by just walking, in poke range he doesnt need to jump anymore though so its just a matter of playing a really precise game of footsies…its hard since his pokes are better lol so you kinda need to abuse far mp and far Hk and pray they dont charge their godlike FA.
Oh yeah I get what you mean now. It’s true they can CW on reaction for massive damage combo if you are close enough. Highly doubt they would actually risk that if you stay relatively far though.
Alright, I believe you when you say FA is better and safer vs Fei most of the times. But I still think LP Kasatushi is a great tool to get out of the corner. And the MP version could potentially bait CW or Rekkas. Though I agree you pretty much have to anticipate their Rekkas and pokes for the counter to truly be effective. Just throwing random Kasatushis out there isn’t a good idea (unless your opponent is also throwing a lot of random rekkas).
I know I was only talking about the distance in which LP/MP Kasatushi leaves you in after teleport. Which is far/jump distance for M version and sweep distance for L version.
When I see him glowing yellow I pinwheel. Wether he goes for ex run or ex leg throw it can still catch him.
You can also try to bait his running throw with FADC: You charge focus attack up to level 2, then Fuerte won’t dare use slide or body slam so his only remaining “safe” options are to stop running or go for a jump throw (which technically beats FA). So then all you gotta do is dash or backdash + punish.
EDIT:
Oh yeah, forgot about that lol. Don’t FA if Fuerte has ultra meter. That’s a no brainer.
One of the most common “panic reaction” to Fuerte’s ex run is backdashing or jumping back. Which is often what Fuerte wants you to do because that also = free Ultra 1 or Ultra 2. It’s a brilliant shenanigan set up shown by GiPie here:
That’s if he’s running toward you. If you mean him using ex run on wake up to get away from your pressure, then a simple throw seems to beat Fuerte’s ex run.
I’ll do some tests in training mode. I always wanted to practice this matchup.
Focus attack is a free U2 for fuerte, he can just stop running its always the better option actually, people always panic when they see him do EX run towards you, they might often do nothing and capitalize on whatever mistake you make.
His vortex is the same for everyone, counter doesnt save you this time its really just as bad all around. He has limited options against rush down, his Ex Air Grab gets him out of sticky situations but is by all means punishable. Ex run…yeah thats a problem, thing is you can grab him out of it but unless its like a meaty on wakeup he will often do that bare run through anything into grab gimmick to start a vortex.
You can probably play this matchup in two extremes, rushdown and zoning, and its pretty much your call on which you prefer and whether or not you should switch.
The presence of Ultra 2 is a bitch…turns everything you do into a punishable situation, delaying jumps with divekicks is standard fare against its AA properties, but if they just block it chances are they get to punish badly placed ones anyway, it really is hard to deal with. Dont forget they get an easy armour cancel ultra with it too, so starting wakeup pressure is hard, because if you touch him with a meaty normal you get ultra punished.
By no means is this an unwinnable match, 5-5 when your standing, 7-3 on wakeup id imagine. Go to the lab on him if your unsure but i think this is the kind of match you need to feel out rather than come up with a rock beats scissors solution.
edit: Forgot to mention you can bait his wakeup U2 with airborn moves, st.hp, st.mk, far hk, sekku and mk/hk fireballs essentially. All lose to delayed or armour cancelled U2 inputs except far Hk and st.hp which can be U2’d on block, you can cancel Hp into Ex mk/hk fireball to avoid being U2’d on reaction but it loses to a ton of other stuff as you can imagine. St.hp meaty itself is a risk because it can be lk/mk DP’d and they can always just run through and grab or run away.
Far hk can also be a risk when placed bad, but its pretty decent on his wakeup if not the best, stays airborn the longest, catchs backdash and its safe on block, does lose to lk DP and Ex Run shenanigans though (unless you have FSE to cancel off of it into a special).
