The fuerte player said to always forward dash on wake up. I said “but slide beats that”. He’s like “75% of my options are beat by forward dash”
Hes right but look at it this way, if he does crossup splash or if his propeller grab crosses up as he does the startup flip your forward dash will either auto correct and you get tagged, or nothing happens and you get tagged. I tried forward dashing on Dawgtanian’s fuerte in casuals at BBC, i tried it alot and i could never get it to come out because of what i just said.
Its just like Vipers flame kick vortex, you can try forward dash the ones high above your head, but in that case when you forward dash you can hold the forward direction after your done which means you will block the kick if it crossed up while you were trying to forward dash (and nothing came out). That is a good thing, while as in fuertes case because hes got grabs, its a bad thing lol.
Akuma’s Vortex
So ive lost to alot of Akuma’s lately and it isnt so much his keepaway and footsies that bother me so much that his vortex is so completely overpowered in terms of mixup potential. So i wanted to primarily look at that in abit more detail:
Common Vortex Starters
The vortex is just a term that is reffered to as a really strong Okizeme/KD wakeup game. He usually starts this off the basic untechable knockdowns:
Sweep: He cant combo this off of Lk tatsu on Juri so thats a great plus in the matchup. In footsies expect to get hit by this alot, its fast and safe on block. So if they hit you with a random sweep, depending on the distance they will either go straight for a demon flip, IA fireball/jump fireball shenanigans or other more elaborate setups.
Forward Throw: Something thats often done mid screen is forward throw > Dash forward twice/Dash forward once then walk abit/Dash forward once, wait > Demon Flip. They can also do forward throw dash forward once then jump fireball to get a safe high/low fireball 50/50 mixup, you will have probably see them just walk up overhead/sweep or something. Either way they cant start a bare demon flip after a forward throw so they usually begin a vortex by dashing forward at least once, thats your signal to start paying attention.
Back throw: Its either wait abit into lk Demon flip or some IA fireball shenanigans, there are probably other more elaborate setups id imagine but these seem to be the go to.
Basic Demon flip Counters
On reaction to bare demon flips, jump back roundhouse and dash unders are very effective. Where jump back moves win against demon flip throw, sweep and divekick but lose to palms, dash unders avoid palms and throws but can get hit by well placed divekicks and sweeps.
Wakeup Demon Flip Oki
Dash unders still work vs divekicks and palms over your head, but if they are placed abit in front of you they can still get tagged, it often loses to sweeps but completely avoids grabs (to my knowledge) and crossup divekicks/palms (because you might often get a crossup block/backdash anyway after he crosses u up).
Counter only works vs divekicks and sweeps, its really unsafe, gets beaten by palm, empty divekicks and grabs.
Backdash avoids some divekicks and palms, but they can OS sweep or U1 off palms to beat backdash, personally i think backdashing is the worst thing you can do in a demon flip vortex, id try and avoid it.
Ex pinwheel beats palm and grab but loses to divekicks, sweeps, crossup palms and fake palm setups. This is also an option thats very unfavourable.
Ultra 2 actually has its uses in Wakeup game surprzingly, it beats Sweeps, grabs, divekicks and palms but loses to delayed divekicks, crossups and empty safe demon flip setups (usually involving a really late palm). In the corner is can be hard to crossup palm properly, so keep that in mind (IE its a good bet after they get a KD on you in the corner and go for a Demon flip).
HK Super is also really good at beating practically everything, this is because it also beats crossup shenanigans, it pretty much only loses to safe demon flip setups.
Blocking Low will block sweep and divekicks, but you can still be grabbed and palm also hits high, so keep that in mind.
Overall id say the best options are Forward dashing, Ultra 2, Hk super and ofc blocking. Between those you should be able to cope overall.
Air Fireball Shenanigans
This ones real simple, Expinwheel is projectile invincible and Excounter can absorb fireballs. If you have time to regular counter them, ie hes walking towards you under cover of a air fireball then do regular counter, however both Ex and regular counter get hit out of if he times a hit to hit you at the exact time the fireball makes contact, this is also true for his Ex air fireball which shoots two of them, it will often make you absorb one and then get hit by the second fireball.
On a close sweep knockdown or backthrow he can do a IA fireball and make it ambiguous as to which way you need to block, if you have meter you can bypass this and teleport in the direction he shot the fireball from, if he crossed you up you teleport in the opposite direction and you get a free cr.mk punish, if he did it regular you escape and your safe. If you dont have meter you need to block it, you can also do a frame perfect focus attack to absorb it but thats really hard, just block it.
If he does Jumpin Air fireball and you have meter you can expinwheel punish, Ultra 2 also punishs his landing recovery. Air to Air J.mp works really well, puts your hurtbox really high so the fireballs often whiff completely. Otherwise try and FA backdash or block it, it can be hard to react to sometimes, especially if he mixes it into his jumpins to bait AA’s. At times you can also dash under them and get a free punish on his lanidng, so look out for those opportunities.
If anyone has anything else to add or correct me on, feel free.
Mike, just to point out…Palm + sweep beats all of juri’s options. If done correctly you cant pinwheel as he recovers fast enough and sweep covers any ground movement. Once akuma players realize this, its a nightmare for our queen.
Meh. Still Juri outsmarts Akuma in zoning department imo. 
I basically abuse Kasatushi, safe divekicks, h fuhajin and dash unders vs Akuma. He’s hates it. Also: jump forward strong and pinwheel FADC ultra 2 is pretty useful in this one.
I’ve never had much trouble vs Akuma. Then again I’ve never played Tokido. 
Once your knocked down theres no reason not to palm every KD with the OS sweep. Again, forces us to block and get caught in akuma mix up. Its pretty deadly.
All the things you mentioned is true. I’ll add.
c.mk beats far roundhouse clean. If you know its coming, c.mk xx whatever. If youre a FADC xx ultra 2’er, go for it. Its free.
Air fireballs are nothing. dash under or kick em. ’
c.mk beats cross up tatsu
fuhajin store beats DP at the right range
Dive kicks beat teleports.
just some things to add
Hey fellow Juri players. Been a good while since i posted on the forums, being busy with studies and all. While dinking around in the lab i came upon two addition set up to ultra II and a great corner mix up which is too gdlk! I hope to post up a vid later of it in action, but i thought i share it with you all.
U2 set ups…
This one was that just dawned upon me…
Focus attack crumple…you can either back dash and lk. fuhajin and store or have a lk. fuhajin stored. Just let it go and if you’re not in the corner its an fadc into ultra two, does around 400 damage and it is pretty practical, because you have time to decide what you wanna do. This move can also be done in the corner with no fadc required and can be done on all characters. The set up is…
Fa crumple from any level> Lk. fuhajin store in the corner> U2
One thing you can do, if you’re close to the corner, and if you have a store already saved, is dash them into the corner as fast as you can, and pretty much just let the fuhajin go at anytime, it puts the opponent in a juggle state. So if you feel you don’t have enough time to do it just let it go, fadc and ultra 2 or mix up if you wish.
The second set up is also probably one of the most astonishing things i’ve come upon and i do not know if anyone here has found it or not. While trying to dash my opponent to the corner for the easy u2 set up with the fuhajin came upon this.
After the crumple in corner you can jump mp. and juggle the opponent for anything, u2, mix up, or a combo. I’ll try to get a shitty vid up of all these things. Until then, keep on rapin!
Im surprized that it never occoured to you that you couldve just done:
FA > crumple> backdash > dash forward > U2
or just go for a ex divekick from the backdash for even more damage.
The fuhajin is only 50 damage, and it scales the ultra, the above two setups do 470ish and 540ish dmg respectivly.
Albeit ill admit it looks stylish, you would def get rep points for just showing it off in “im going to win anyway” matchs.
Second setup is known, its also character dependand and for the most part hard to execute before they hit the ground, i remember playing with it when i was practising FA crumple resets. Its one of those things that exposes the fact that FA crumple is eventually airborn. U2 followup is pointless aswell for the above reason of dmg scaling.
You don’t even need to dash out of the focus attack. You can just wait out the recovery frames and still have all day to ultra.
Glad to know that! It just dawned on me last week. The whole j.mp after a fa crumple is very nice and helps her offensive mix up game a ton. I figured out today that you can do the j.mp after fa from anywhere near the screen, which isn’t too bad! I tend to like to make my move stylish because well i wanna make people go omfg, but in a practical sense, i barely use any of the many set ups for the u2, i just wanted to share my discovery.
i agree with all of this.
I’m surprised he didn’t mention kasatushi at all. It’s a nice way to close distance in any Keepaway MU. Also, I have to disagree about the fireball war being a bad idea. I mean if Rose keeps using Reflect then it’s an easy punish for us.
But yeah FSE is terrible vs Rose.
I gotta admit that’s one of my hardest matchups.
Fse is amazing vs rose.
Look. The match is played just as he said… Fireball mind games because rose will try and stay back. Once you get a kd you should be able to take half half her life. Her defense is bad. Exploit it.
Once she has u2, back up and fuhajin on wake up to take an orb. Makes hitting her out of u2 easier.
Once you get another kd you might have fse. This should close the match out.
That’s my goal in the match up her defense is as bad as ours. Fse is too much for her to overcome.
I compiled a Safe-Jump video to show the timing on characters with regular knockdown timings.
[media=youtube]WhmwICZ8kL4[/media] If you want to add it to the list I wrote a while ago for a timing demonstration.
Here is a list with characters that wake up differently, good to keep them in mind when setting up a meaty for example:
From a regular kd:
Adon: 7f faster
Blanka: 2f slower
Cammy Sagat: 1f slower
From a backthrow (knocked down facing the ground):
Adon: 2f slower
Blanka Claw Dhalsim Sagat: 1f slower
Hakan: 5f slower
(I used a Makoto guide’s backthrow framedata for these numbers, please correct me if I’m wrong).
Good stuff. I like it
That was awesome hotaru. I’m definitly gonna try some of those set ups.
I’m not digging the FF theme though.
Rose’s defense is bad? You trolling? lol. I think you mean she has weak wake up options/reversals.
You might be right, I dunno… all I know is everytime I fight Rose she seems like a wall. Same with Chun Li. Footsies are the best defense sometimes.
Sorry. I usually mean defense = wake up. Yes… Her footsies are awesome. Her pokes are great. But when she is kd… It’s all over. All of her options are beat by pinwheel. Ultra 2 is her only option.
Train them to block and fuzzy guard takes care of the rest. It makes them blindly guess btw blocking low, high, or back dashing.
think. I wonder if you could option select + fuzzy guard.
licks his lips
You don’t need fuzzy guard on someone’s wakeup. Safe-jump with j.MP or empty jump with c.LK. It’s impossible to react to. I also mentioned this in the FSE thread some time back.
Yes, you can j.HK [OS EX Senpusha] > j.MP. It’s better to do it with an OS than with a safejump imo because if you whiff your safejump due to a backdash for example you may do a punishable whiffed j.MP since there isn’t much time to confirm.
That sounds delicious.
The only problem I have with fuzzy guard is not hitting the damn thing… It’s confirming it.
So many times I hit the person and causes the fuzzy to whiff. That’s why I prefer nj hp.
Something to try out.
I do like the idea of empty jump lk. I always eat reversal counter hit though