Back on topic, I believe Gouken has gotten worse since Vanilla and up to AE.
I don’t know about you, but when I analyze my own game, I see that I land about
3 back-throws a game
Flip Kick a whole lot
Kongo a whole lot
and I rarely use the fucking jumping MP to Hurricane, or juggle with the jumping HP or HK, and against good opponents, I rarely even get a chance to use the EX Tatsu AA - usually it’s baited instead where I’ve grown desperate and think “Finally, here’s Gouken’s time to shine!”, only to make a fool of myself and fall victim to unintentional cross-ups on the opponent’s behalf because of its pathetic start-up.
Additionally, his damage output has been worsened, and I even believe the HK Tatsu juggle after EX Palm has gotten more difficult to do, as I connect only the first hit half the time. Back-throw combo jumping MP to MK Tatsu is also gone, and so is the instant recovery on a whiffed Flip Throw.
In the end, I lose a ton of damage on the back-throw, and a ton of mix-ups on the Flip Kick, and damage and ease of use on the Kongo. What I have in exchange, is a hit-confirm which doesn’t change much - it’s still susceptible to SRK FADC, and it will have less priority and damage than a cl. HP-trade, and basically a bunch of pretty bells and whistles that lack any sort of substance.
Flip Parry is improved, but it’s still a free throw for the opponent if both play wrong - IE you guard against something that doesn’t appear, and the opponent doesn’t even react.
I think I may have more of a good, wholesome time playing Vanilla, than this nonsense.
Thank you, Capcom.
To correct myself, the hit-confirm is good after resets, so my mistake on that one. But I did just as fine with cl. HP to LK Flip Throw or Dive Kick.
How you guys feel about changing the counter to the old one but having the command changed to dd+p or dd+k so they dont have to come up with a new counter and there wont be any command overlapping?
I can’t do dd motions (yeah whatevs I don’t care!). Counter is fine so long as they made medium and hard counter boxes bigger. I think the biggest problem was on crossups, sure Fei could get you on a reg jump in but for the most part I think we were ok. As long as they fixed those boxes…
completely disagree
What exactly are you missing out on with backthrow? the 100 damage on Ultra? Were you 1 hit j.mp EX tatsuing all the time or something? Most people don’t even want backthrow Ultra anymore.
I feel like flip kick was somehow faster in Vanilla, I’ll give you that. I don’t care much about overhead dive kick, I feel like good people are going to be blocking it anyway. One thing I did notice in Vanilla as compared to AE though is that I used to actually get demon flip kick max punish when I EX flipped on fireballs. Now I’m lucky to even get the kick to hit, nevermind the combo when I land.
Think you might be alone in this, EX tatsu is pretty awesome. Weren’t you one of the people who didn’t want it to hit low and now you are here saying it sucks? haha. I also use j.mp and the various followups quite a bit.
Almost everyones damage has been adjusted. There is no difference in the EX palm to HK tatsu combo. Consult my chart to see who it works on and who it doesn’t. Sometimes the difference is using st.hp vs c.hp. True story. 2 hit j.mp never worked with full hit tatsu of any kind AFAIK.
How is a hit confirm susceptible to srk fadc? You either fuck up the link or you don’t. By the time st.mp comes out you should know if it was blocked or landed. If it was blocked you can do frame traps or a kara throw, if it landed you can finish your combo or combo into SWEEP for safe jump set ups. What “ton” of mixups have you lost? OH vs sweep? Damn I wish that was the focal point of Gouken again…(sarcasm).
You neglect to mention you got a combo into sweep for a hard knockdown and safe jump set ups, you got frame traps, you got hit confirms (sorry but this is your fault if you can’t react to what’s happening or nail your links), you gained use of your anti-air, and you got extra damage whenever you air to air with j.mp to the tune of 170 to 185 dmg depending on the situation.
I’d hardly call that “playing it wrong” for the opponent. They block dive kick, sweep and avoid a punish through parry. They are susceptible to the flip throw. Only you played it wrong.
I’m sorry but I think this is the best iteration of Gouken to date. I’m not saying he is good, just saying this is the best he has been to date.
Thank you, Capcom.
To correct myself, the hit-confirm is good after resets, so my mistake on that one. But I did just as fine with cl. HP to LK Flip Throw or Dive Kick.
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Now that I remember, I uses backthrow into j.mp > EX tatus a lot. Pretty much anytime I land a backthrow, don’t have ultra, and have EX. Now I just go back to HK Tatsu or j.mp -> s.HP -> Flip mix up.
Dont think kongo is fine at all: go to practice mode and put dictator doing repeated diagonal j. Hp and try to parry it. I bid you good luck. Better boxes will help but not fix this at all.
Thats pretty much what I do too although I would miss J.mp to tastu alot lol. My fault though…
Anyway I agree with Reipin on the fact that the current version of gouken we have now is the best version comparing to Vanilla and super. Since he has not lost anything besides HP palm in 2012 AE and hes gaining stuff along with more potentials buffs that he could be getting AE 2012 Gouken will Surpass AE gouken for sure. Question is will he be able to put up a better fight with the rest of the cast.
I’m guessing his gonna be about the same b/c he hasn’t received any significant buffs to his defensive options.
Kongo is still nerfed and we have no move that has invincibility on the first 1 frame aside from that. So if Gouken is getting grabbed then is a wrap unless you jump.
The general message I’m receiving with Gouken is still, JUST BLOCK.
Capcom needs to make his Tatsu = Tiger Uppercut, or something, AND HIT CROUCHERS.
Gouken needs a SIGNIFICANT BUFF to make a difference. Not that the things that have been done now aren’t great, but he needs even the playing field a little with being to be grabbed so easily.
His Zoning Game isn’t that great to give opponents such a handsome reward for getting in. It’ s no where as near a frustrating as Dhalsim or Guile. Speaking of which, they could just forgo buffing Tatsu and give him a faster hado start up with the same recovery that it has now.
He probably need faster charge time, that one is badly needed. It makes very little sense that it take three times as long for him to charge his fireball into 2 hit then Akuma / Evil Ryu / Oni takes to get three.
But really. 3 frame super? I can see myself using that. I notices that I already have 4 bars a lot of the time for no good reason. Mainly cause I uses cr.hp on close jump in anyway. Because I’m just scare of whiffing it (ex tatsu) and eat ultra. This just happen to fit my game plan better.
Getting super sp.palm back is good too, getting more cancelable normal is good. Not sure how Kongo work but if it get better. Great. The part where you have to use high parry for standing stuff is just wrong though. I really don’t see how I can possible react to three different height of attack without throwing an EX bar here and there.
From the look of it Gouken become much more EX bar depend, if fireball charge EX bar faster, it might make him more comparable with other character too.
I really like your ideas, and really wish some of them would happen.
On top of all that have been posted, I’d add a 4 frame move. Even if it is EX tatsu.
Oh, almost forgot. Improve his demon flip grab to catch crouchers. Otherwise, the sweep is just useless. Maybe it already works, but I just can’t do it. Everytime I delay the grab to reach crouchers, I end up with a sweep since I’m too close to the ground. It could use some improvement.
I wish they would lend over the combo and characteristics of Oni to Gouken. And I’d also like to see them lend to ONI Goukens’ Cr. Roundhouse.
Gouken just doesn’t have 1 amazing move that we can just throw out there. I wish they would either make his fireball game Guile-ish or just beef up his ability to defend himself close up with a Tiger Upper Cut like tatsu and command normals.
Yo! can someone post this on Capcom Unity. I don’t have an account that’s why.
Theoretical changes for what Tatsu should be: Lk. Tatsu
Start up decrease 7F -> 5F
Recovery decrease
Upper body invincibility
Mk. Tatsu
Start up decrease 10F -> 7F
Recovery decrease
1st hit untechable knockdown
Hk. Tatsu
Start up decrease 13F -> 10F
Recovery decrease
1st hit untechable knockdown
Damage nerf 185 -> 170
Ex. Tatsu
Start up decrease 7F -> 4F
Enlarged hitbox to hit crouching opponents
Recovery stays the same.
This seems to be a balance changed for Tatsu.
It has been 3 iterations of this game, yet Tatsu still remain untouched. Why?
Also this!
I’ve got an idea.
Since Capcom doesn’t want Lp. Palm to connect at the tip of cr.lk in it’s current state, how about a compensation of no knockdown but for the ability to move again and speed adjustment to connect at the apex of cr. lk? and it will only cause knockdown on CH. You guys think that’s a good trade off? We will have a close range anti - focus move for Gouken.
Let’s say theoretically they did adjust it Lp. Palm (connects at the tip of cr.lk) this is its changes
Regular hit: no knockdown(similiar to Ae Zangief G.hand changes and first hit of Ex palm)
Counter hit: Current state of Dash palms(Far spinning knockdown.)
Do you guys get it?
I know majority of us wan’t Lp. Palm to move, but at its current state I find it horrendous.
This seems like a fair trade off to me. What do you guys think?
Hell now that I think of it, we would get a greater tool for FADC combos with its greater damage than Hadou( similiar to Oni’s running slash in FADC combos.) That’s if the pushback isn’t too far.
For sure. Maybe if the regular tatsu had some invincibility we could use it as AA. As it is now, the risk of trading or missing and getting punished is too big.
LK tatsu has upper body invincibility and is quite useable as anti-air, the problem is the range is deceptive. It looks like it should be hitting with lots of horizontal range but you have to use it when people are jumping right in front of you otherwise it will drop them. You can’t hit their jump attack with the tip of your foot.
Missing is on you, it’s up to you to know when it will miss and not. Trading is fine cause you get an Ultra for free. If you are getting hit out of it you are doing it too late.
