FINAL AE 2012 Balance change Request for gouken to ONO!

Classic Fighting Games Ultra Street Fighter IV
1

Ill start by listing all the balance changes listed for gouken so far from apha and beta changes.

• One of the most altered characters, the devs say. The main changes are to his Denjin and Senku Goshoha.
• His Denjin can be sped up to up to twice its normal speed and powered up by over half damage by doing a 3S SA3 Ryu (spinning the stick like a loon from Ultra start-up until you let go of the attack buttons). There are three speed-ups and five damage levels, with the charge times as follows:
Level 1 – 13 frames
Level 2 – 17 frames
Level 3 – 37 frames
Level 4 – 57 frames
Level 5 – 80 frames
• Each fully-charged Denjin now does 45 more damage, while charge times are now the same regardless of the amount of your ultra gauge.
• As for the Senku Goshoha, LP hits further in front, MP is the same as his Super LP version and HP is the same as his Super MP version. Also, Kongoshin has a slighty larger hitbox and deals 200 stun, while cr.HP deals more hitstun and so locks the opponent in place for longer, allowing cl.MP, cr.HP, EX Senku Goshoha to hit everyone.

[Sakotsukudaki] (f+MP): Hit box enlarged downwards, active frames changed to 4F. Hit stop and guard stop time has been changed from medium attack length to heavy attack length. Hittable area has been reduced, making it easier to dodge crouching attacks.
[Forbidden Shoryuken]: Startup greatly reduced from 11F->3F, which makes it easier to combo and counterattack with.
[far MP]: Deals additional 1F of hit stun, and is now special/super cancelable. Thus [far MP] -> [M. Senkugoshoha] combo is now possible.
[far HP]: Active hit frames changed from 3F->5F.
[close HK]: Active hit frames of first part changed from 2F->5F.
[Denjin Hadouken]: Lever rotations needed to speed up the move have been reduced

We have recieved quite a few changes but the golden question is will these changes help gouken in the long run or will he be more or less the same character who’s not viable.

I and im sure you guys still feel he needs changes in other areas to make him a more solid character and capcom seems to be skiping over these areas. Ill start by listing what I feel gouken needs to become more solid.

  • Air parry needs to recover in 4 frames and should start up faster in the air.
  • regular tastu’s startup and recovery needs to be lowered and lock in more
  • crouching mp should deal more block stun and hit stun
    -Charge time for regular 2 hit hadou should be reduced
  • Ex hadou should be instant 2 hits but alter hitstun and block stun for balance sake.
    -Cancel hadou charge and store with kick button.
    -Air tastu’s recovery should be less
  • Remove current backthrow and make it a command grab but if command grab is done you can’t get ultra or super anymore. give him a normal backthrow.
    -Cr and standing jabs should be + 2 on block + 5 on hit to allow for more combo’s and pressure.
    -Cl standing mk should be make a command normal to help goukens punish abilitys.
    -ex tastu should hit crouchers
    -Reports from the japanese are saying kongo’s and Chp to ex palm are still not working at times and this should be reworked.
    -lp and mp palm need to be safe on block and hp palm stays the same.

This is what I feel what needs to be looked at when capcom is making the FINAL patch changes. Please everyone list what you feel capcom needs to touch on when making the FINAL changes that they will bring us later this year. They asked for our feedback and so im trying to speakout.

2

Now for theoretical normals.

  • Cr.lp 3F start up +5 F. advantage

  • Cl. st. mp 4F start up +1 active frame ( 2 -> 3)

  • Far st. mp 4F start up

  • Far st. hk knockdown on CH(Counter hit)

  • Cr. lk 4F start up

  • Cr. mp added F. advantage on block + 2

  • Far st. mk +2 active frame ( 2 -> 4)

  • Far st. mk command normal

  • Far st. hk command normal

3

Whatever new buffs they give him, I just hope it’s enough to prevent the creation of Thread #6 directed at Ono for Gouken changes.

4

cmon guys… do you see this list compared to the original 2012 request list?

Getting way too greedy now.
We need only 1-2 key changes if anything.

Previous wishlist changes are still wishlist changes.

5

I would rather have jab > sweep and cr. mp/lk > hado more than anything.

6

just need cl.st.mk to be command normal and super to have JP1/full juggle.

That’s pretty much all I need at this point. I’ve learned to deal with everything else. cl.st.mp is my hit confirm.

7

Forgot about that. And cl. st. hk needs to be a command normal as well.

I wish Gouken and Oni had similar normals especially with the links and target Combos. The only thing Oni can’t land off of jab is cr. roundhouse. Everything else is good AND he can combo hado’s from jab.

I don’t think Gouken should be able to combo everything like Oni, but FAR jab > sweep should have been a given.

8

Im pretty sure the next list of changes they release will be the last well at least I think.

No one is getting greedy! We Have had to deal with a non viable gouken for 3 versions of the game! Its time to SPEAK UP and tell capcom what we want as much as we can to see the old man compete. Our current list of changes is nice, but even the japanese are reporting some of the changes are not working correctly STILL lol.

Im pretty sure capcom is not doing another balance patch after this so this is our last chance to speak up as much as we can for the old man and thats what im trying to do.

Our first list of changes were pretty much fixes besides besides dejin buff. Our second list of changes makes me really think “What is going on in capcom’s head” . They buff our super when we have other problems that need to be looked at. Overhead is still too slow and wont be of much use. far standing mp cancel is the best change from the second list and im really looking forward to messing around with it. They should have left Overhead and super alone and buffed regular tastu’s and air parry and his hadou charge but whatever. Im hoping with this last patch list we get more meaningful changes that will take gouken far.

9

Well… I’m going to leave it the the experienced players after this, but I’ll throw in a possibility for Kongoshin that I don’t think has been said.

Give us lp+hp kongo using the same animations and roughly the same hit boxes as in Super. Have mp Kongo use the EX animation with a small hitbox at the elbow. Make mp Kongo cancelable into lp+hp kongo, while lp + hp only cancel into EX. This makes kongoing easier again, and allows us to kongo a 2 hit fireball without burning EX.

I doubt Capcom would want to change Kongo again, but this seems like a useful and fair compromise to me.

10

Try some ideas which are in balance with the game’s current system and logic

11

Let’s go Back to original 2 Kongos LP LOW, MP HIGH, and HP KONGO to counter throws.

12

God…
It’s so unlikely for cl.st.mk ever become a command normal. There nothing special about it visually to implement special attributes such as an overhead(it doesn’t match its animation) to become qualified as a command normal. If anything Far st.mk is more suited for it.

13

DOUBLE EDIT: Forget what I said about cl.st.mk, Street11 has the best idea for it. See his post a few posts down.

TRIPLE EDIT: TL;DR:
1. Change Middle Kick. Combine close and far versions. First part of the animation would be close standing MK (3 frame start up) and second part would be far standing MK. First part is special cancellable. Credit street11 for the idea. Otherwise make clost standing mk a command normal (towards+mk)

2. Allow the first hit of Forbidden Shoryuken to juggle off all attacks including diagonal jumping 2 hit MP, senkugoshoha, and kongoshin.

3. Change LP senkugoshoha to be like Tiger Knee. 9 frame start up. 120 dmg. Travels the distance of LP senkugoshoha from Super Street Fighter 4. Can hit for the entire time he is dashing and is -4 on block. This way we can do all our old combos and still combo from light attacks. Return MP and HP senkugoshoha to to AE versions.

The point is, they really never took anything into consideration after the first round of buffs, and seriously, they didn’t really need us to tell them Kongo was not working like it should have and that the LP palm was a mad nerf along with losing super lp.palm.

Unfortunately, we are always going to lose something so long as lp.palm remains pretty useless. It needs to combo from max range of any of our cancellable normals to be of true use, that’s the TRUTH. jump in cl.st.mp > cr.mp xx lp palm will still whiff, I can guarantee it. The point of new lp palm was so it could be used in our hitconfirms and combos and be used as a blockstring ender while being safe. It still does not serve this purpose. It needs RANGE.

I mean honestly, this is how palms should be. LP palm has “super lp palm” range, but activates in same time as AE LP palm, has armor break, does 120 dmg, is -4 on block, and during travel distance the palm is completely active like a tiger knee. In effect, it would be a slower tiger knee, just that it wouldn’t hit low limbs. MP palm stays the same as AE, HP palm stays the same as AE.

Now, you keep MP and HP palm so you lose nothing and you now have the distance of super LP palm with all the buffs + 1 of AE.

That being said, what IS going on in Capcom’s head? None of us know, but I’m damn sure it isn’t going to include jab of any kind to sweep since they just nerfed it from Ken and took away E.Ryu Akuma like combos into sweep. It seems to be something they don’t want.

Next, we aren’t getting any new moves. I’m almost 99% certain of that. We won’t be getting demon flip to normals or tatsu or any of that, and seriously, how freaking often do you guys Tatsu over someones head anyway and get away with it? Yun could roast a whole pig and then fist you from across the screen. If you haven’t learned to deal with waking up with shitty options by now you need to seriously concentrate on that.

For whatever reason capcom is buffing the super, well if they are going to buff super and make us use that, then start asking for all hits to combo after a super cancel or air hit. In effect we need JP1 on the first hit which would give us the ability to get full damage after a 2 hit j.mp, a raw palm, or a kongo. Please realize that a super only counts as one hit in the combo scaling mechanics so this would be a HUGE freaking buff. You add 345 damage to any of the above things for almost Ultra like damage. 80+345 = 425. 120+345 = 465. 150+345=495!!! Who WOULDN’T be ok with saving super at that point!? That’s a buff you should be asking for, NOT lp hit confirms.

You don’t NEED 3 or 4 LPs to hitconfirm, it can be done PERFECTLY fine off of cl.st.mp. Neither lp or mp can hit low so what’s the problem? Stop asking for a repetitive tool. And really, what exactly are you going to combo into? Current LP palm which probably won’t even reach after three lps?

Ask for a real buff like JP1 on super which keeps Gouken in line with the big damage dealer that capcom envisions him as. 3 frame startup is not enough and just won’t change anything enough to make people want to save for it. Gouken can do so much damage with 1 bar that it really is freaking hard to dump 4 bars on only 345 damage.

Beyond those two, he has two real weaknesses left. Wakeup, which I highly doubt they are going to do anything about and stopping serious pressure. Think run stops by a great Guy player or Yun (current version anyway, I see the Yun matchup getting slightly easier with divekick height restriction being moved upwards and the ability to punish whiffed dive kicks). That’s where cl.st.mk comes in. Move it to a command normal so that we can take advantage of the hitbox and range it has, it will allow us to mitigate pressure in a safe manner. We won’t have to random EX tatsu or Kongo to guess on pressure all the time.

I’m telling you, give him those three things, cl.st.mk to a command normal, full juggle on Super, and change LP palm to an always active attack like Tiger knee with Super LP range but AE frame data while keeping MP and HP palm as their AE incarnations (along with that st.mp buff they gave us and the other buffs) and I can’t see how anyone can come in here and be like I lost cause of Gouken.

I just can’t.

You’ll be able to punish minor mistakes and combo from max range normals (and get back all our super lp combos), you’ll be able to mitigate pressure in a safe manner, you’ll still be free on wakeup, you’ll have a whole slew of hit confirms starting off cl.st.mp which are only made easier off a jump in, you’ll have the most damage AA in the game with EX tatsu (not even counting the sick range you can AA at that other people only wish they could get 200 dmg off of), you’ll be able to punish mid mistakes with st.mp xx mp palm, major mistakes you will STILL rape people, your super will be incredibly useful, I mean cmon, this is the worst run on sentence in existence!!

Every character in this game has a weakness, if ours is wakeup and not having tricky mixups then so be it, it isn’t anything new to us (or a lot of others).

You’ll be a god damn wall of pain.

EDIT: BTW I’m not taking anything away from what people are coming up with, some of them are cool ideas or great ideas, but I’m looking at this from Capcoms perspective and their design views. If they take away Fei and Ken’s ability to link to sweep off LPs they sure as shit aren’t giving it to us.

They don’t seem to want to change regular tatsu, so forget about it. 3 iterations of the real game and two more “balance” tests and they haven’t changed it so rest assured they aren’t going to. They know what the recovery is, we’ve complained, they don’t care. I was one of the biggest proponents of changing tatsus, notice I’ve stopped asking. Not because I don’t think they need changing, I just know they aren’t going to.

14

God, what the fuck is so special about far.st.mk that it is suited to be a command normal?

Think about Dhalsim. His far normals are not command normals but his close range ones are. God…

15

Well there is an exception. His normal moves are special from the rest of the cast(Far stretching normals), thus him having command normals for close range normals. Cl.st.mk being a regular normal is much better than it being a command normal in my opinion. I know your just basing this purely on your personal desire but it just doesn’t seem to match with Gouken logic of normals. He doesn’t have special normals like Dhalsim has, ergo cl.st.mk being a command normal wouldn’t stand out significantly from the rest of his normals. God…

God…God…God…God…God…
God…God…God…God…God…
God…God…God…God…God…
God…God…God…God…God…
God…God…God…God…God…

16

OMG, forget it. You seriously CANNOT understand why cl.st.mk as a command normal would be a huge buff? You REALLY HONESTLY WHOLEHEARTEDLY think it is better as it is right now!?

Just say yes or no.

17

This thread is funny. Cl. st. MK needs to be a command normal!!!

18

You don’t fucking get me. I don’t have anything against your idea, but I thought it would be greater if Mk in general would just be cl.st.mk itself. More easier to utilitize than it being a command normal. That why I opposed with an idea of far.st.mk of being the command normal instead, then in return cl.st.mk would be the regular Mk that Gouken will have.

19

By the way, I posted an idea for a persuasive trade off for current Lp.palm to change.
Since Capcom doesn’t want Lp. Palm to connect at the tip of cr.lk in it’s current state, how about a compensation of no knockdown but for the ability to move again and speed adjustment to connect at the apex of cr. lk? and it will only cause knockdown on CH. You guys think that’s a good trade off? We will have a close range anti - focus move for Gouken.

Let’s say theoretically they did adjust it Lp. Palm (connects at the tip of cr.lk) this is its changes
Regular hit: no knockdown(similiar to Ae Zangief G.hand changes and first hit of Ex palm)
Counter hit: Current state of Dash palms

Do you guys get it?

I know majority of us wan’t Lp. Palm to move, but at its current state I find it horrendous.
This seems like a fair trade off to me. What do you guys think?

Hell now that I think of it, we would get a greater tool for FADC combos with its greater damage than Hadou( similiar to Oni’s running slash in FADC combos.) That’s if the pushback isn’t too far.

20

Just remove close and far version of st.MK and combine them to be one move. Frame data will be start-up 3, active frame 2(2)2, recovery 13. Damage will do somewhat less. It’ll force stand opponents, and it will do 150 stun. 2nd hit will be super cancellable, 1st hit will be special cancellable. But we know capcom won’t do it.

I can say that they will absolutely not make one normal a command normal, because: They’re too lazy.