you’re focusing on being able to punish people which is fine because its a big weakness, but if you fix that with the command normal all that happens is people who are good will attack with stuff that’s safe, and gouken still relies on people making a mistake to win. What he needs is to be able to attack from neutral and make the opponent step off the gas and consider defending.
For example when you footsie with ryu you hold back because you fear the ex fireball, or with guy you fear the slide, or with deejay you fear the safely spaced sobats. i could go on and on. It forces you to play defensively, reduces your frequency of fireballs and pokes and forces you to wait for them to jump or waste meter.
if hado had fast startup like iam suggested then he would be much better in the neutral game where people currently rush him down and his corner game would be really good, maybe too good because of his minimal hado recovery. mp palm being safe on block stops people from just rolling in whenever they feel like it.
close st.mk allows you to punish stuff sure but gouken is still a punchbag until they make a mistake. the cl.st.mk change would require you to play defensively for the majority of the match. he needs something that makes them ease of the gas in neutral situations for fear of getting smacked suddenly by an armour breaker or something thats real quick ranged and safe. Almost every other character has that, and its why gouken gets rushed down so hard.
also i rarely get full super, and mathematically you would never save meter for super since goukens ex moves are so fundamental to his defensive (tatsu) and offensive (palm) game. meter for damage they’re far better value than super even if it full juggles. 2 tatsu do more dmage than the super so it’s a no brainer. these changes won’t fix bad matchups, it’ll bring them close to even but not quite there. which means you can expect to win some but ultimately lose more than you win. he’s close to being good, but i guess thats nothing new either
That’s why I wanted the far. st.mk to be a command normal instead. If it was cl.st.mk we would have to sacrifice our down back or back state to defend ourselves if it happens to whiff from a neutral stance. Cl.st.mk. being the regular Mk would great help us being that it will still give us the option to defend ourselves without having to press forward leaving ourselves invulnerable to counterhits. It’s not if has a greater range the Far.st.mk, so why not use cl.st.mk as his regular Mk instead and vice versa?
AS BORED AT WORK GOUKEN , I POSTED THIS LIST ON C-U ! LAST CHANCE TO BE HEARD OR FOREVER HOLD MY PEACE SO FUCXSX IT !!!
REBALANCE IDEAS:
1.HP HADO FASTER PROJECTILE SPEED and BIGGER or just faster will greatly help zoning
2.MP HADO FASTER PRJECTILE SPEED - will help zoning alot
3.MAKE FB STRENGTH INCREMENTALLY INCREASE THE LONGER WE CHARGE (so maybe we get 4 strengths idk!)
4.FAR ST.MK SHOULD COMBO INTO ALL TATSUs - if he can already reach opponent with that move why not combo from it? gives him Bison-like mid range , it helps ground game! reward us for using that weird move in a combo
5.GIVE F.MP (command overhead) EX VERSION and ARMOR BREAK PROPERTIES
6.MAKE DEMON FLIP CANCEL INTO AIR TATSUs PRE APEX
7.MAKE DEMONFLIP CANCEL INTO NORMALS POST APEX
8.LET GOUKEN FADC>KONGO - to help keep opponents out
9.GIVE GOUKEN FAKE FB OR LET HIM CANCEL FIRBEBALLS by tapping B,B.
10.NEW COMMAND NORMAL
DOWN FORWARD+MK - hits twice and is comboable to all FB and or all tatsus
J.RH +1 or +2 FRAMES
INCREASE J.MP HITBOX VS. CROUCHERS
NEW COMMAND NORMAL
DOWN BACK + CR.LK (links from all LK MP and LP and combos into ALL tatsus and LP HADO)
INCREASE RECOVERY ON ALL TATSUS
INCREASE RECOVERY ON DEMON FLIP PARRY
MAKE LK TATSU SCOOP UP OPPONENTS FOR MORE TATSUS OR JUGGLEABLE STATE
(e.g.: LK TATSU>MK TATSU or HK TATSU>FADC or LK.TATSU>EX PALM>…?
It’s more then that. First thing that changes is what is defined as safe. You can easily cut in half the amount of “safe” thing people can attack you with. Secondly, even if they do attack you with something “safe” they can’t continue to pressure you unless they too have a three frame normal and they are 0 on block. It’s like if you made palm safe on block, say -2 or -1, if you do it to Balrog, you are still going to lose the momentum cause he is just going to cr.jab and begin his offense.
In addition to punishing it allows you to go back at them with a cl.st.mk xx lp palm or fireball to push them out and give you space.
Having a full super juggle would make someone step off the gas and not just laugh at a 150 dmg counter.
I disagree, I hold db because if I push a button I’m getting counter hit cause any normal with range is 5 frames and all these people have faster/better normals that beat out my counter poke (the poke I am using to try to switch momentum). You are stuck in defense cause you don’t have a poke to reverse momentum. Trying to reverse momentum just gets you Counter hit and knocked down again. I’m obviously of the belief that a 3 frame normal with range changes all of this for Gouken. It won’t solve everything, but if it solved everything then what’s the point of playing street fighter? I think it will go a long way in making the matches more push pull instead of push push push.
I addressed this with my LP palm adjustment ideas, and what’s more is, we get to keep MP palm and HP palm, we don’t lose ANYTHING. Right now we are swapping out one weakness for another with the way palms are. Hado recovery/startup… You can’t change one and not the other. Just leave them. You start messing with tatsu startups, fireball startups, it’s going to be sf2 all over again with fireball/uppercut traps day and night, only Gouken can do it from anywhere with his horizontal reach and fast forward dash.
Same idea as above. Reverse momentum. On top of that if my LP palm change was implemented focus fishers are solved as well.
You don’t get full super because you have no need to. Neither do I right now. You use EX tatsu because you have no use for super. We made due in vanilla and Super using cr.hp and c.mk, it can be done, it HAS been done. We never had a hitconfirm combo like cl.st.mp > mp > mp palm before which is 120 dmg less than anything you can do with an EX palm not involving an Ultra. Again, why would you willfully forego using an EX palm when you have no use for super?
Now imagine super was 3 frame start up, and juggled off all those things I suggested. You don’t think this puts the opponent into the category of extremely careful and cautious? Losing 100 dmg here and there on an anti-air or combo not worth it when you can punish with a simple read for 400+ damage? People have Ultras that don’t do that much damage.
I said the same thing you did, who the F has super with Gouken? I said this at my local meet up. It was pointed out I had super often enough. I was surprised. This is without even trying to save it, sometimes you just don’t get the opportunity to burn your EX. With the new changes so far you’ll actually have the choice to save it.
Use a combo of Kongo and normals for anti-air, use the new combo to punish, save super to threaten any and all things for humongous damage.
Don’t get me wrong, I’m all for faster 2 hit charge and whatnot, I just don’t see how this is going to be solving anything in the long run. How is this going to save you when DeeJay has you in the corner lk sobatting you? Guy is run stopping you? Sakura is tatsuing your forearm to pulp? It won’t. I’ve pretty much tried as best I can to explain what kind of impact I see each of my changes having and what area of weakness it addresses, most of all these ideas are just cool ideas, I don’t see them explaining why or what it addresses, and I can’t just get behind random cool ideas that I don’t see as actually addressing anything.
I get what faster 2 hit charge is supposed to be for, but what is this REALLY going to change? Is it actually going to help a lot? Are you guys deathly scared of Oni two hit fireball?
Controllable flip… Not exciting to me. EX rainbow is fully active and hitting the whole time he is moving around, that’s why it is scary. I just see people jumping up and airthrowing you or using an armor breaker or two hit normaling you while you are dicking around trying to place it.
Normals or tatsus out of flip - great in theory, but normals are just normals, you’re asking for an invincible on the way up jump and then a normal attack instead of demon flip attack… why? flip kick can already cross up. Tatsu? Dude most people can just WALK after you and punish you when you do this. Tatsu is too slow to recover for this to be of any use.
I’m all ears if people want to do a nice write up on their changes and explain to me the thought process behind some of these things.
^^^ cancel to tatsus for people trying to AA ur GFLIP, on the way down cancel to normals, namely rh given the new trajectory it will open up new crossup ideas and setups now you have them guessing all sorts of shit when you come at them.;…
truthfully its not about winning minds here , no write up is gonna do that for any of us. they either take ideas from suggestions and make changes and or dont and we either like em and know how to implement new changes to benefit our playstyles or we dont. in any case some of us are getting fucked out of a character next version!
I want to know what you guys are thinking for myself then. I posted my changes on Unity and some guy was like WHY WOULD YOU WANT CL.ST.MK AS COMMAND NORMAL??? Do cl.st.hk instead!!! Gee, I wonder which would be more useful…
dj.HK is so hard to make crossup I don’t think it would be useful to be honest, I’m not seeing what this would change, it would still lose to the aforementioned stuff. Same with a tatsu imo. It sounds cool, I just don’t see it influencing any matchups in a positive way. I can’t think of a time when I wish I could do either of those because it would totally change the matchup I was facing.
I can kind of see how cancelling to tatsu would allow you to hit people jumping to get at your flip, but if you do it and they don’t jump, it’s punish city, it’s another low reward high risk type thing imo.
it would be a reactionary option to the AA they see you flip they go after you , you cancel to tatsu.
Im actually having alot of fun with dj.HK right now look at the labwork thread i found alot of stuff it helps out with. there just cool things i think would help my playstyle is all. were all selfish here with what we want so screw it. lol!
Though, I do think the 3-frame Super will help a lot. Can’t it now be used to punish half of what we’re forced to block and forget, currently? Especially when taking into account the range on the HP version.
Says you… if the opponent know the game, he will pressure with low attacks and mix it up with throws and baiting. If he plays right, you’re forced to guess with the Kongo - there is no other way. Additionally, there are so many ways to mix it up against the Kongo to boot, so the odds are simply horribly against you.
I’d would preffer if the cl.st.mk was his regular Mk instead and far st.mk vice versa. I don’t mind it being a command normal… hell we need it!, but I want the option of being able to hold back/back down to defend ourselves in any case of counterhits on whiff. You know what I’m saying?
I don’t think there is any range difference on the supers, and if there is, it is minimal.
What exactly are you planning on punishing with a 3 frame super though? You aren’t scaring Guy from doing run stop on you or a plethora of other things. It won’t alleviate pressure, and if it does, it will do it once a round for 345 damage and then you are right back in the same position of being pressured to death.
3 frame super by itself is just not enough, 3 frame super with full juggle is not enough. You need cl.st.mk. I don’t care what way capcom implements it but just having it as proximity is obviously next to useless as anyone who has played AE can tell you.
There is a significant difference between the three Super versions. HP Super reaches almost two character lengths away - same as Ultra 1. When it’s 3-frames on start-up, it can perhaps be used to counter some things, because of its quick start-up, and long range.
Maybe it can be used to punish Rose’s Soul Spiral - from any range? The frame data says -4 at best.
i wasn’t disagreeing with your hypothetical application of your changes, and i dont disagree with what you say here either. i just think that without the ability to throw something out and make the opponent react, you are left with a defensive character and one without a good or safe reversal. I used to play decent blanka and i can tell you that it’s a LOT harder to react to moves you can ‘throw out’ than it is to throw them out and score easy damage.
If mp palm was -2 on block then i can promise you that you would a) probably land about 250 damage per round by landing the move or chipping, b) force the opponent to reduce their rushdown and re-allocate their metal focus on watching to block palm pokes. yeah boxer would be able to jab x straight you but who cares at the distance it leaves you it’s not like he can tick throw you and you can just backdash or kongo etc. i think it wold be a massive change, as big as close st.mk, for me they’re both needed. i think i’d get more mileage out of c.st.mk but alone it doesn’t boost him over his bad matchups.
Anyway i’m looking forward to playing gouken with whatever they decide, and i’m kinda interested in playing blanka too, i’ll probably get a new xbox when the patch is released.
Hmm I was just thinking about ex hadou and Id like for it to be changed and work differently like this.
You have 2 ways to use ex hadou:
**EX FIREBALL TYPE 1------**1 instant 2 hit fireball that moves on the ground like a normal projectile.
-**EX FIREBALL TYPE 2-----**Press another set of buttons whatever they may be and get the normal 1 hit 2 direction projectile unless you charge them fully for 2 hits like we have now.
-You can charge both types of ex fireballs. and type 1 fireball would just gain more damage via charge.
This would help gouken in fireballs wars and people trying to dash in on him. He would have 2 different EX fireballs that activate via siad button press.
**TYPE 1 BUTTON PRESS— **Press lp and mp together
**TYPE 2 BUTTON PRESS— **Press Mp and HP tegether.
I feel this is balanced becuase if you use type 1 you lose the air fireball for just a ground one buts its instant 2 hits. If you lose type 2 then you get your 2 projectiles back but its only 1 hit on startup like we have now meaning the opponent could dash in on you and start pressure. Block and hitstun on type 1 fireball may need to be altered for the sake of balance since its instant 2 hits.
Just an idea I had and Im sure not everyone is going to agree with it >_> I feel this would improve his EX fireball game while not taking away what we can already do. As for regular fireballs I feel the charge time for a 2 hit should be reduced a bit but thats it.
I just played a game and lost to Bison (see the benefits of the PC version!).
I jumped and hit him with jumping MP, and tried to juggle with Ultra 1. It missed…
Bison got some momentum, and pushed me towards the corner. We both jumped, and I got hit with Bison’s jumping MP. He comboed to Ultra 1, and won.
I know Gouken’s Ultra 1 doesn’t combo from the first hit - I think it’s from the 107th hit, or so, but regardless - this goes to show how there is always some bullshit attached to everything Gouken has or does.