As someone who used to spend hours practicing on multiple beta builds of CS up until 1.6, I can say that FPS’s do require skill. Modern ones however are trying their best to dumb shit down.
Didn’t Orichi say his friends were new to fighting games, he didn’t say anything about them wanting to learn a specific fighting game… I assumed he wanted us to recommend a fighting game they may like.
I believe that if you can execute just about every special or super in ST on a consistent basis you can play any 2d fighter competently. I’ve seen top tier 3rd strike and SF4 players who can pull off crazy 10+ hit combos struggle to pull of specials, or link basic 3 hit combo’s in ST. I’d recommend ST/hyper fighting for that reason and the fact that they’re good games.
Even a derp game like COD takes skill to play at a high level. Go against some top COD or Halo players and tell me how it went.
Yeah, but are there really any games you can’t say that about? Even games like Pac Man had people competing for high scores, and not just anybody could do it.
I don’t think it’s really any secret that CoD, and other such games, strive to be about as easy to pick up and play as possible(within reason). But that doesn’t mean that the whole genre doesn’t take skill.
Apples and Oranges in my opinion. Both genres require different skills but they both promote game knowledge, reactions and planning.
To be honest, I respect anyone who loves something enough to practice it.
To be a top FPS player you need seriously quick reflexes and hand to eye coordination. FPS competitions are far more competitive than any other scene.
Including the FGC?
FPS is more about map memorization and quick-shotting then anything else.
It depends on the FPS. Arena FPS are all but dead because they took reflexes and quick thinking, as well as training the muscle memory for advanced movement. And on top of that, you had map control, which is about timing, and other other variables, like understanding and utilizing the strengths and weaknesses of each weapon under pressure. And then there was reading and predicting the opponent.
But I agree, modern games seem to be more focused on who can get that headshot first, and knowing the best spots on the map. I’d love for the Arena FPS to make a comeback, but there seems to be a lot of hurdles in the way.
Yes, FPS’s have far more competitors from all over the world. The FG scene tends to be concentrated in America, Japan and Western Europe. Quakelive for instance has far more competitors than SF4, 3S and ST combined. If you were to put 10 good quakelive players up against a top 30 ranked Quakelive player he’d easily kill them all, multiple times, without dying once.
Even Marvel 2?
Reasons why Karnov’s Revenge is a better game then ST.
Seriously. I’m being for real, yo.
First, we’re going to ignore “retarded bullshit” like TOD’s and stupidly good moves because both games have that. If you mock Karnov because of the “Ballllooooooon!” special and how gdlk it is, I can just as well point out Claw’s Dive Loop off a knockdown.
Starting with:
Controls. ST has stiff controls which are par for the course of real old school fighters. It tends to effect certain characters more then others as even die hards will tell you. Compare to Karnov that has fluid and flexible inputs. Your execution does not have to be 100% perfect but Karnov doesn’t go as far as say SF4 with ridiculously easy inputs either.
Trip Guard. ST does not have trip guard. Karnov does.
Stun measurement. Unlike ST, Karnov has a visual indicator of being close to Stun. Karnov could be the first game to have this feature. And for those who hate free stun combos, Karnov allows you to get stunned only once per round.
Consistency. In Karnov things are consistent. Your combos will be 100% consistent and are not random (hello Ryu cr.MK into Super), damage and stun is not random. Karnov could also be the first game that has damage scaling and backdashes.
Pretty sure his charge is unsafe. And at any rate both players are not 100% familiar with the game. Mizogouchi can do the same thing with ambiguous high/low shenanigans.
Edit: if we’re bringing up tiers (which is something I didn’t mention) let’s see some Old Sagat vids, eh?
Yes, even Marvel 2.
Just want to point out that there can be major execution barriers in FPS as well (less so in COD). Most people outside the genre don’t know this, but movement in Quake is as much based on mastering exploits as the animation cancels in fighting games. The rules vary as well, so moving from Quake 1 to Q2, Q3, Q4, QL, and various pro modes of Q3, if you haven’t studied up, it’ll put a huge cramp in your ability to move around the map properly, put pressure on the opponent, or escape from a bad situation.
These minor nuances of applying just the right pressure on the mouse while jumping, and pressing the strafe keys at just the right moments, mean that a more-skilled player literally has a higher travel speed than a less-skilled player. If you try run away just by holding WASD, they will immediately catch up and toast you no matter how much of a lead you had. If you try to chase a player with better movement skills, they will just leave you in the dirt, powerless to do anything.
This also make a big difference in shooting, because if you don’t understand how the target is moving, you won’t get the crosshairs lined up in time - they’ll zag right out of it.
So yeah, there is a barrier in execution - players can spend hours practicing routines and quickjumps just to keep their speeds up.
That statement doesn’t really pay respect to the fact that there can be mindgames even in “quick-shotting”. Granted, in games like BF and COD, you get full auto weapons with low recoil that can kill anything in just a few hits. The bullets hit instantly, so it’s basically point-and-click. These are the FPS equivalent of DOA4 or whatever n00b friendly FG you feel like lambasting.
In games like Unreal Tournament and Quake, weapons are balanced according to skill. A full auto weapon which shoots instant-hitting bullets will do low damage - 15-20 bullets to kill. An instant hitting weapon with a low rate of fire might kill in 1 hit, but it takes the same time as 15 machinegun bullets to fire the next shot.
The most powerful weapons fire projectiles that move closer to the speed of footballs or basketballs, which means you can’t aim at the opponent. You have to aim where the opponent will be in the future, either several split seconds ahead or several seconds ahead. It’s like throwing a pass in football - where the person catching is trying to get away from the ball. Even rocket launchers and grenade launchers have very small splash damage, so you have to be accurate within a few feet, or just hit them dead on. In many instances, pros can predict the opponent well enough to hits players they don’t even see - they shoot a rocket through a doorway, and a few seconds later, their target runs out and takes it in the face (FPS equivalent of a psychic DP).
When you combine all this with the very fast speeds players can jump around, you basically have to be inside the opponent’s head to hit them. If you just try to watch the screen and line up the crosshairs, you’re not going to make it. You have to understand what techniques they’re using the move, and where they’re trying to go.
Moreover, since you have to collect weapons, ammo, and powerups off the maps, you can’t just hang out at the safest camping/ambush spots and win. You actually have to memorize the spawn times of items, so when your opponent grabs something, you can add it to the time to the clock on the fly to figure out when you can go back to get it. Then you have to understand how the opponent is prioritizing resources so you can cut him off or beat him to them.
This gives you a pretty good blow-by-blow break down of basic overall strategy, with slow-mo where needed (skip to 3:55).
Now that is just a straight-forward 1v1 on a small map with only a few items. Imagine the kind of considerations present when you also have to work with teammates on larger maps against 2 or more opponents in TDM or CTF. It’s really not just a matter of having quick reflexes and getting lots of “killstreaks”.
Personally give me Breakers and Karnov’s over ST.
Back to actual FG talk. Would peopke here be interested in semi automated match up charts? I’ve got a google docs template that automates filling up the upper right triangle based on what you put in the lower left as well as automated color coding that I can easily adapt to different games.
ST is a great game but it gets far too much praise at times. In truth, I always felt like KR was a more refined ST that improved certain oversights like you mentioned. However since ST is well…ST it will still get considered as the"OMG BEST FIGHTING GAME EVER AHHHHHH"even if other games surpass it.
It’s kind of like when 3s got all the attention in the FGC even though garou basically out did 3s at its own game with better implementation on the same ideas.
Also I give respect to the FPS dude above…very good argument.
Eh, I don’t see how Garou is better then 3S bub. I mean, the people who bitch about tiers in 3S have never fought a decent Kevin or Jenet in Garou.