See, I’d have a discussion about this, because I actually find it pretty interesting, but the problem here is that you’re not talking about “what makes a good game” you’re just making some ethical stance, presumably because vanilla Sagat/Pheonix touched you in a bad place. Well, that and I’d just start incoherently rambling about old school games vs modern games and the nature of meter systems and crap that isn’t really on topic anyway.
Suffice to say, ST, GG, MvC2, CvS2, all included comeback mechanics, all super great games.
But he could also have pulled out any invincible move. Also fuck up? I’ll suggest that I shouldn’t have done that in the first place! No ultra can hit a jab unless psychically. Raw ultras should hit VERY RARELY[I’ll give you that it does happen periodically and in char specific OSes]. They are not so simplistic a thing to land! Are you perhaps suggesting that the fact that I can’t go balls out is such a bad thing?
Point 2. Or they could give me an ultra. Which evens up the match. Again it brings the matchup closer to even. Isn’t this a good thing?
Also this thing about heavy dmg scaling makes my head hurt. Makoto does 400-odd dmg in the corner 2 bars with like 600 stun. Seth does insane dmg off an FADC[and even a c.lp annoyingly enough]. FFF is like. woah. Don’t get hit by a E.Ryu. The thing that makes it scale is the prevelance of jabs in extended combos. Which OUGHTA be scaled.
If Abel gets U1 then the other player can’t throw projectiles cause there’s a great risk Abel will plow right through them for a ton of damage. Characters shouldn’t jump in on Hakan or Rufus when he has U2 stocked. The fear of Gief’s U2 keeps people from jumping or backdashing. Seth’s U1 shuts down just about everything in the game except for an early projectile. There’s a lot of examples.
There is no way for you to lose in SF4 without getting the chance to use your own ultra and if someone uses it as a comeback mechanic now you’re basically even on life and you have ultra and they don’t.
You mean like 200 odd. But yes fatal. Explain why this was the most awesome thing ever? The reason she could do that incidently was because after stun scaling went back to zero. You want that back???
Ok. even if I give you that he didn’t ‘quote’ earn the option. Hitting it is definitely earned. And basically what are aiming for? I’ll harp on the FB option since that’s generally whats given up once the U is ‘earned’. Makoto and Abel have no good options for dealing with it. But if I have good reactions then I can get you back instead of hoping to inch my way in. You agree that the move itself should be there right? Well ultras allow me to have that move guarenteed instead of potentially being locked down forever. Or are you suggested that the chars should just be useless. As it IS, they’re not suddenly FB char killers. But they would definitely be weaker otherwise.
Yes. but my point is that the match is suddenly in the chars favor. Abel doesn’t suddenly win because fireballs are more difficult to use[not impossible mind you] Hakan…sucks. I’ll gloss over that. You shouldn’t jump at rufus anyway[as of AE it doesn’t do this regardless] Giefs gives him a strong option to replace EX Green hand but Seth I can agree change up the game somewhat and I would throw in Rose. Those 2 annoy me a bit, but it can’t all be perfect.
At the beginning of the match, neither player is likely to have super. By the time anyone is in a position to be making a comeback, both players will likely have built up super just through the course of normal play. As a result, plays made later in the round tend to have more dramatic effects than those at the beginning.
You might argue that it isn’t a comeback mechanic because it helps the winning player, too, but that’s actually not important. As Mark Rosewater mentioned in the quote above, what matters is that the losing player has hope.
I don’t think we’ve seen enough exploration of Hakan to conclude that definitively in AE. He’s looking pretty beastly in 2012.
I super agree. X-Factor is stupid, Vanilla Ultras were stupid. On a side-note, I feel like people slightly over-react to Ultra’s post vanilla (eg, the Hong Kong Three dominate the AE metagame, yet none of them have impressive Ultras, but this is again, super off topic), but it’s for understandable reasons, and they’re still obviously poorly implemented. My point remains that saying “no comeback mechanics EVAR” is throwing the baby out with the bath water.
In Super Turbo, and I believe in other SF2 games (although I could be wrong) the person who lost the previous round in a match does more damage. Kind of not a comeback mechanic because it still favors the person who won the first round, but it’s still very obviously a mechanic intentionally included to make games “artificially closer” than they otherwise would be.
If you build super meter during the match/round and then use it to even things up later, that isn’t a comeback mechanic in the same way as having your character get stronger because they got hit in the face a bunch of times. (edit: Just saw the above post- if this wasn’t what you meant with regards to ST, sorry)
Also, K-groove isn’t the only mode in CvS2, and it goes away if you don’t use it within 15 seconds, or whatever the time limit is- it doesn’t continue to grow as you get hit (SF4) or lose characters (MvC3). And you weren’t really able to activate your rage mode at will (both), thus you weren’t guaranteed damage by doing so (both). Even taking those things into account, CvS2 would probably look different if it were a K-groove-only game, and not everyone would like those differences.
I’m sure someone could argue the validity of comeback mechanics in general- Samurai Showdown II is a very respected old-school game, or you could cite the Desperation Moves from other SNK games as an example- but if people are even going to have the conversation, they should probably be talking about the same thing.
As for "features" in the broad sense, I'd like to see Ono and other game developers stop manipulating tiers and overpowering/weakening characters without good motivation. MvC3/UMvC3 isn't quite as guilty of this (I doubt Wolverine/Phoenix/Dante are so good on accident, though), but SF4 is genuinely obnoxious. Rose and Gen will be weakened with no real just cause, but they'll make Yun ridiculous, because they want people to play as him.
Most of you probably don't remember Mortal Kombat 3. Back in the day it was a big deal that the game had what people would now call target combos, that were 5 or 8 hits long. But a lot of players decided rather quickly that it felt really fucking lame that the game had predetermined combos, when compared to other fighting games. Also, MK1 and MK2 already had combos, like all fighting games do- they just weren't labeled as such.
I feel like SF4 has a lot of that going on. A lot of links which were obviously predetermined and OK'd because they're literally in the training mode, a lot of moves which were deliberately too good (divekicks, Yun's _____, Seth's full screen crossup Roundhouse, Messiah Kick, Yoga Tower etc), throws are super easy to land and loop into themselves to set up guessing games, etc. The game is, I'm very certain, designed to make players feel like they're better at Street Fighter than they actually are. And I don't mean to say SF4 players *aren't* good, or even that the SF4 games are bad- but they let you get away with a lot of bullshit. Or, to phrase it differently, they allow players to do things that would not be feasible in other games.
I think it depends on the ultra and the matchup. I may get the chance to have an ultra, but I won’t always get the chance to use it. By “use” I mean actually put it to use and get the damage off it. As a gief player, I can’t use Siberian Blizzard half the time cause the opponent simply won’t jump. When that happens, I feel as though I’m not getting the chance to use it, even though it’s availible.
Wow, nice to know someone else was feeling this way! I could never put it into words, but its like they tried to micro manage the development of the meta game.
I realise the OP wanted to stay away from things people wanted, and focus on things people don’t want, but I feel like this is more useful that rehashing old flame wars.
Fighting games need to completely redo searching for online matches. Fighting game devs need to go load up TF2, or any other PC shooter, (but TF2 is free, and worked for me when I used to play) and look at how you search for servers, and use that GUI/UX, not the shit we’re getting. I realize console makes it harder, both because of your interface, and because you’re going through xbox/ps3 servers/network interface, which are probably weird, but still, this is a HUGE deal, and I honestly feel like it’s keeping back every Fighting game in existence. (even though BB has one of the better UI’s, and nobody plays that).
Stop requiring us to use colors and include pings. Stop not letting us restrict searchs, if I do a search and get a huge list of red bar connections, not letting me order them or restrict them by ping is WASTING MY FUCKING TIME, and when you waste my time, I go fucking play something else. SFIV’s region restriction is actually a complete hack, which is why it’s super depressing that it’s the best version currently existing. Stop using obtuse connection menu’s, stop not letting us rematch, stop including lobbies if you don’t have spectator mode, stop making 8 the default lobby size (seriously, how often to people actually want lobbies with a size higher than 4? This isn’t an fps, more does not mean better), stop using crappy button select screens, and just generally STOP NOT HIRING A FUCKING USER INTERFACE GUY.
I argue its not a comeback mechanic because if you rape someone in ST, they won’t have a super to use. Since meter is independent of health lost, whether you have super or not is entirely dependent on what you’ve been doing.
It only aids comebacks if you managed to build it up prior.
I imagine that most makoto mains can do it for the most part[notably its nil execution on the two lowests stun and relatively easy for shotos and the like], and the right spot if your side of the SCREEN. Also if your idea of horrid damage scaling is a system that disallows OHKs why in the world are we even talking about Ultras. Don’t get this started on execution makes it ok sorta thing…
[PS: ToD combos are the ultimate comeback mechanic, add that to my list of things I don’t wanna see]