Execution Barrier: Why is this still here?

[IglooBob]

I don’t understand why people are name dropping “the older games” as if old games were more technically difficult. 3s for example is very easy! it’s much more accessible from an execution barrier standpoint than most modern fighting games. ST and CVS2 are both pretty accessible as well. yea the motions are sometimes less lenient but from any other measurement they’re quite easy to get into.

also people should dial back the hostility and condescension. there’s no value in a conversation like that.

[Pertho]

snip

I’m not saying you are, but the game has a lot of hard combos. Saying there aren’t 1 frame links in SG is silly.

So who is your team? Might start up on Cerebella for that command grab hype.

[d3v]

snip

I’m not saying you are, but the game has a lot of hard combos. Saying there aren’t 1 frame links in SG is silly.

I don’t ever recall saying that Skullgirls didn’t have one frame links.

I’ve been using it more as an example of easy inputs (since Mike refuses to use anything more complex than a DP motion).

So who is your team? Might start up on Cerebella for that command grab hype.

Peacock/Fukua/Fillia

[Rabbit360]

Execution barrier.
Why is this thread still here?

[Emil]

Why does it matter who is considered more skilled? All that matters is that both are being presented with meaningful and fun challenges. The worse players do not matter to the better players. Do the slimes matter to the level 99 heros? At a certain point all that matters is dragons, and if there was a way to instantly transform a bunch of slimes into dragons so much the better. Well, I guess a certain class of player enjoys beating up on slimes but I would hope that competitive players are above that sort of thing. The only thing that matters to me, as far as newbies are concerned, is leveling them up as fast as possible to the point where they can present me with a challenge. I believe that many potential players might become quite competitive and be great at fighting games, if only there wasn’t this huge initial hurdle for doing basic stuff that turns them off.

I’m not really sure what you’re talking about so I think you misunderstood what I’m saying.

My point is, suppose that I am matched up with a player of equal intelligence, mental capacity and knowledge, but that my execution is way better than that player. If we remove execution barrier from a game, then this player would be considered equal to me, and my superior execution skills would not have any influence on the results of the match. I believe that my superior execution skills should have an impact, because they show an additional level of awareness and reflex. I think a number of people are wrongly disregarding execution skill as being something mindless, when it really isn’t…regardless of whether it is mindless or not, people that either have that extra natural talent or invested time and effort to perfect their execution, should be rewarded for it relative to someone who has butter fingers and lacks coordination.

[BB_Hoody]

I don’t understand why people are name dropping “the older games” as if old games were more technically difficult. 3s for example is very easy! it’s much more accessible from an execution barrier standpoint than most modern fighting games. ST and CVS2 are both pretty accessible as well. yea the motions are sometimes less lenient but from any other measurement they’re quite easy to get into.

also people should dial back the hostility and condescension. there’s no value in a conversation like that.

The condescending crap comes from @DuckStrong, @atirador and @JaceBuilder. Dudes can’t disagree without being condescending dicks about it.

[atirador]

My only answer to the OP question:

http://i.imgur.com/Dl30723.jpg

[JaceBuilder]

Know what I say? Fuck the people who say fuck it. In all likelihood I don’t want to play the game they would like. If we’re strictly talking about making a good game, you gain absolutely nothing by placating the lazy and stupid.

Indeed, and what’s more, all the easy inputs, shortcuts and get-rich-quick schemes in the world wouldn’t be enough for these people to enjoy fighting games, they would still not win without effort, still go back to CoD, and nothing whatsoever would be gained.

So 90s gamers sat all day in a non-existant training mode to learn how to play SFII?

An excellent comment that strikes right at the heart of the matter. Even today this holds true, and it goes to show you how detached from reality one must be to complain about ‘grinding in training mode’ when **almost every single fighting game worth a dime is released without a training mode. **

Tekken 7 just came out. Would you say it features a training mode for players to endlessly ‘grind’ in before they can start playing? All your bad tastes and faulty logic notwithstanding, this simple fact at least should give you some pause, it should make you question, if only for a moment, this comical attitude that you for some reason hold on to.

The condescending crap comes from @DuckStrong, @atirador and @JaceBuilder. Dudes can’t disagree without being condescending dicks about it.

Even you, with your mental capacities such as they are should have been able to discern how kind and respectful I have been, how much more so in fact than warranted by your uninformed opinions and childish concerns, that men more sensible than me simply ignored, going as far as to carefully and patiently explain in detail what exactly is mistaken about them, even when a simple ‘Your friends sound dumb’ would not only have been easier, but more accurate and truthful as well. And you? …

[BB_Hoody]

@JaceBuilder Even now you’re being condescending. No one here has the undisputed answer to this. We’re all just exchanging ideas and seeing different possibilities. You may disagree with some of us and vice versa. That’s OK. As long as we’re civil and acknowledge each other’s points. But you, Duck Strong and what not act as if ya ideas and way of thinking is absolutely right and can’t possibly need to be re-thinked. That’s the point of this thread. Instead of just accepting “That’s how fighter’s have always been, git gud noob” Why not question some of these design choices for fighters and see if something different could work for some of these fighters? Would it really be such a crime for a game like Street Fighter to try to simplify its execution? If it doesn’t work it could always go back to the way it was.

[Pertho]

snip

I’m not saying you are, but the game has a lot of hard combos. Saying there aren’t 1 frame links in SG is silly.

I don’t ever recall saying that Skullgirls didn’t have one frame links.

I’ve been using it more as an example of easy inputs (since Mike refuses to use anything more complex than a DP motion).

So who is your team? Might start up on Cerebella for that command grab hype.

Peacock/Fukua/Fillia

My original comment wasn’t addressed to you still.

What are the assists? that team sounds kinda cool.

[SaucySnake]

I’m gonna start by saying I don’t have as much experience playing fighting games, and I do primarily play SFIV so I might be biased. I don’t have much experience with games like 3s or ST outside of arcade mode in MAME, so my take on input leniency in older games is next to useless. I can, however, comment on the ease of entry into different modern fighting games such as Skullgirls, KOFXIII, Blazblue (CSE onward), P4A (just the first one, havent played Ultimax), and GGXRD to some extent. I’ve played a fair bit of all of the games listed, mostly with one of my friends who is a semi-casual fighting game player, enough to progress past the “mashing random stuff” phase. I can’t say I’m any good at any FG, but I’m more proficient at SF4 so most of my analogies will be coming from that game.

SFIV is my favorite game out of the ones I listed, specifically because more weight is added to each individual input in terms of match length. I couldn’t get into skullgirls for exactly the reasons several people have mentioned: I hate memorizing combos. Dial-a-combo games like SG and Marvel are great for some people, but I like slower-paced games that focus on decision making over long strings. And this is where my viewpoint on execution diverges from those in this thread: I believe execution is not just the inputs necessary to perform individual moves, but the inputs necessary to perform meaningful actions. i can do basic combos in SG that go into super, but they aren’t enough to make a significant difference in life or pressure in the perspective of the round. The match impact is less from me doing a 10 hit combo in SG than one anti-air DP in SFIV, yet the DP motion is toted by some in this thread as “too difficult” for new players. Sure SG was way more fun to mess around on with my friend because we were both ass and were mostly just playing to kill time, but when I play online I play to win, and I’m not willing to spend the time practicing the 40-hit bnb described earlier in the thread.

Just as an example of “match impact” if I anti-air someone in SG, they recover and then can just air-dash or run back in and keep pressure, versus in SF I reverse the pressure and can apply my own. The two scenarios can’t be seen as equal across games, and neither can special move inputs. Just because a grappler in one game has easy inputs doesn’t mean a 720 on Gief is wrong. I haven’t watched much competitve SG so I can’t comment on that, but SPDs on Gief are his OP tech, and if you were to balance the move around the inputs being qcf then you kill the character and lower that move’s impact on the match. SG can get away with combos, supers, and command grabs being easy because they individually don’t matter as much as a 720. people complaining about SFIV inputs, especially on grapplers, need to realize that if you took those away the game would change.

Blazblue and GGXRD are somewhat less memory-intensive, but I still for the most part quit playing BB because I didn’t want to memorize strings. most of my combos turn into mashing A until I’ve hitconfirmed, then mash whatever special is good with the character, do a oki setup and repeat. This was fun for a grand total of probably 20 hours of playtime, after which I got bored and went back to SFIV.

I vastly prefer the link system of SFIV due to each input feeling important. cr. mk X hado with ryu is something that took me maybe 15 minutes to get down when I first started playing a year and a half ago, on pad. Since then, I’ve built a stick so I can get better, and play characters that are combo-heavy, because it feels good to hit 1-framers. Are they necessary for new players? no. I main Cammy, but up until 4 months or so ago my biggest combo was cr. lp > cr. lp > cr.mp X SA. I was still getting wins, partly because low-level players can’t block properly and partly because spin knuckle is safe. I’ve since started to focus more on fundamentals, but the deliberate combo system still makes training mode fun, and even though I’ve spent hours grinding 1 framers with cammy and E. Ryu (I don’t even play him outside of training mode) and hayate cancels on makoto, I would hesitate to say that they are required, or even recommended for people outside the upper echelon of the game. The focus should be on fundamentals and individual decisions.

DP-FADC-Ultra is also not required to learn, IMO, at least at the beginner levels, where this discussion is centered around. having it is great in low levels, because noone respects wakeups and it works on wakeup every time, but it’s not an essential beginner skill.

Some final Thoughts, and concessions:

I hate charge characters because I can’t use them properly: for me, charge management is way higher of an executional challenge than 720 motions or 63236 KOF shenanigans, and pretzel charge ultras should get deleted. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with current games’ execution “barriers”, especially with all the shortcuts in the biggest offender’s (SFIV). My views may not reflect those of the majority of FG players because I’m not most FG players, but I think they deserve thought.

tl;dr : Skullgirls inputs are simple, but the moves are low impact so it works. SFIV inputs are slightly less simple, but since one read potentially gets you 60% (jump - in 720) you can spend your time in training mode grinding the harder inputs rather than giant combos. people who spend no time in training mode in MODERN fighting games are gonna get bodied no matter the game. ST and the like are exceptions IMO because of their extreme focus on fundamentals, which transfer from game to game.

[Kwyjibo]

I think I see what everyone is talking about with the combos in SG. My concern is that the concept of doing combos is as hard for others as it was for me when I was learning fighters. It took me forever to learn combos in KI(which probably sounds ridiculous), and it took me just as long to learn how to reliably execute half circle movements. Granted, I might be a slow learner when it comes to that stuff, but that’s where I was coming from. I would imagine that the person who has grown up playing nothing but CoD and Skyrim would have the same issue if they decided to pick up fighters, or even worse than I had it(since I did grow up with much harder video games). Nonetheless, thanks for the insight. Not sure I totally agree with everyone, but I understand where they are coming from.

tl;dr : Skullgirls inputs are simple, but the moves are low impact so it works. SFIV inputs are slightly less simple, but since one read potentially gets you 60% (jump - in 720) you can spend your time in training mode grinding the harder inputs rather than giant combos. people who spend no time in training mode in MODERN fighting games are gonna get bodied no matter the game. ST and the like are exceptions IMO because of their extreme focus on fundamentals, which transfer from game to game.

This has been discussed for pages, and the general refutation of that argument is that the execution difficulty ceases to be a thing after the person spends enough time learning the move and playing the game. So essentially the moves are made difficult for no good reason, and it only serves to frustrate new players who can’t even learn a basic move without spending time in the training mode.

[SaucySnake]

@Kwyjibo If I’m not wrong you seem to have the impression that anyone should be able to perform all of the moves perfectly from minute 5 with the game or so in order for it to be “accessible”. I tend to disagree because fighting games are not a genre where you can learn on the fly, outside of matchups and player reads. The difference between a fighting game and a platformer or a shooter is that the only way techniques can be learned effectively is in training mode, or arcade mode for easier stuff. Older games didn’t have training modes and were on arcades so that is a moot point, but newer titles don’t have to be as basic and simple execution wise because of the popularity of consoles. While in a shooter I might be able to practice quick-scoping mid match or in a platformer I can work on jumps during a level or even in a MOBA I can work on last hits or specific spell rotations during a game, I can’t do the same in a competitive match in a fighting game because there’s no downtime or leniency on when I am or am not active. The short 60-99 seconds that a round takes is not enough to develop even basic tech, and expecting developers to make something “plug and play” to cater to people who don’t want to touch training mode is wrong, IMO.

as for half-circles, db>f in SF is a shortcut I used to use on E. Ryu before I mastered the actual input. I see where you are coming from on the input standpoint but there’s a difference in my mind between a fighting game and Smash, which has no execution requirements for new players.

[petran79]

I hate charge characters because I can’t use them properly: for me, charge management is way higher of an executional challenge than 720 motions or 63236 KOF shenanigans, and pretzel charge ultras should get deleted. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with current games’ execution “barriers”, especially with all the shortcuts in the biggest offender’s (SFIV). My views may not reflect those of the majority of FG players because I’m not most FG players, but I think they deserve thought.

SFIV made charge characters a chore to play. Usually they’re much easier.

The thing that upsets me the most in this fighting game is that when grapplers perform a connecting grappling move, normal camera angle changes suddenly, cutting anything on screen and you see the grappling move in action from different camera angle. Only exception is Hakan, but for Zangief, Hugo and T.Hawk it makes the whole experience very bad. Hope SFV does not repeat that same mistake. Cant take the game seriously with such made up solutions.

[Kwyjibo]

@Kwyjibo If I’m not wrong you seem to have the impression that anyone should be able to perform all of the moves perfectly from minute 5 with the game or so in order for it to be “accessible”. I tend to disagree because fighting games are not a genre where you can learn on the fly, outside of matchups and player reads. The difference between a fighting game and a platformer or a shooter is that the only way techniques can be learned effectively is in training mode, or arcade mode for easier stuff. Older games didn’t have training modes and were on arcades so that is a moot point, but newer titles don’t have to be as basic and simple execution wise because of the popularity of consoles. While in a shooter I might be able to practice quick-scoping mid match or in a platformer I can work on jumps during a level or even in a MOBA I can work on last hits or specific spell rotations during a game, I can’t do the same in a competitive match in a fighting game because there’s no downtime or leniency on when I am or am not active. The short 60-99 seconds that a round takes is not enough to develop even basic tech, and expecting developers to make something “plug and play” to cater to people who don’t want to touch training mode is wrong, IMO.

as for half-circles, db>f in SF is a shortcut I used to use on E. Ryu before I mastered the actual input. I see where you are coming from on the input standpoint but there’s a difference in my mind between a fighting game and Smash, which has no execution requirements for new players.

Yeah, you’re definitely assuming wrong. I was referring to the essentials being easy to pick up, not every move in the game.

[SaucySnake]

So essentially the moves are made difficult for no good reason, and it only serves to frustrate new players who can’t even learn a basic move without spending time in the training mode.

My assumption being wrong raises the question of what “essential” moves are too difficult for beginners to learn semi-consistently within a few hours of gameplay. The only moves I had trouble pulling off at all when i was first starting out playing fighting games were charge moves and supers in KOF. I also didn’t have the strongest hands/wrists at the time both due to genetics and injuries, and I wouldn’t consider myself the best player. The only move outside of charge ultras that has a debateably unnecessary motion IMO is the 720 grab, which has a reason for being difficult (good or bad isn’t the point as far as I’m concerned.)

Sorry if I sound antagonistic, I’m just confused.

[Kwyjibo]

So essentially the moves are made difficult for no good reason, and it only serves to frustrate new players who can’t even learn a basic move without spending time in the training mode.

My assumption being wrong raises the question of what “essential” moves are too difficult for beginners to learn semi-consistently within a few hours of gameplay. The only moves I had trouble pulling off at all when i was first starting out playing fighting games were charge moves and supers in KOF. I also didn’t have the strongest hands/wrists at the time both due to genetics and injuries, and I wouldn’t consider myself the best player. The only move outside of charge ultras that has a debateably unnecessary motion IMO is the 720 grab, which has a reason for being difficult (good or bad isn’t the point as far as I’m concerned.)

Sorry if I sound antagonistic, I’m just confused.

You had no trouble learning things, but others might not learn as fast as you. The idea is to make things as simple as possible without changing the depth of the game. Why use hcf if qcf works and isn’t being used for something else? Why use 360 motions if a half circle will work? Why make moves more difficult when they don’t need to be? And while we’re at it, why add a half circle move, or double half circle move, and then add shortcuts? Wouldn’t it be simpler to just make it easier in the first place?

You don’t have to answer those questions for me, just think about them. And look back in the thread, because these have all been discussed in depth over and over.

[d3v]

snip

I’m not saying you are, but the game has a lot of hard combos. Saying there aren’t 1 frame links in SG is silly.

I don’t ever recall saying that Skullgirls didn’t have one frame links.

I’ve been using it more as an example of easy inputs (since Mike refuses to use anything more complex than a DP motion).

So who is your team? Might start up on Cerebella for that command grab hype.

Peacock/Fukua/Fillia

My original comment wasn’t addressed to you still.

What are the assists? that team sounds kinda cool.

Peacock - LK. Bomb (walking one) to cover Fukua’s landings when doing air fireball zoning. Also since I can get a full conversion with j.HK if the bomb hit.
Fukua - H. Drill to push opponents away and also for teleport mixups
Fillia - H. Updo, DP assist to get people off me.

[ShinjiGohan]

You had no trouble learning things, but others might not learn as fast as you. The idea is to make things as simple as possible without changing the depth of the game. Why use hcf if qcf works and isn’t being used for something else? Why use 360 motions if a half circle will work? Why make moves more difficult when they don’t need to be? And while we’re at it, why add a half circle move, or double half circle move, and then add shortcuts? Wouldn’t it be simpler to just make it easier in the first place?

You don’t have to answer those questions for me, just think about them. And look back in the thread, because these have all been discussed in depth over and over.

Generally the complexity of the moves execution carries with it the strength of the move. If the moves were “simplified” then they’d have to be nerfed accordingly. If a SPD was as simple to execute as a qcf then the move would have to be weakened drastically to be in line with the rest of the qcf moves.

[d3v]

You had no trouble learning things, but others might not learn as fast as you. The idea is to make things as simple as possible without changing the depth of the game. Why use hcf if qcf works and isn’t being used for something else? Why use 360 motions if a half circle will work? Why make moves more difficult when they don’t need to be? And while we’re at it, why add a half circle move, or double half circle move, and then add shortcuts? Wouldn’t it be simpler to just make it easier in the first place?

You don’t have to answer those questions for me, just think about them. And look back in the thread, because these have all been discussed in depth over and over.

Generally the complexity of the moves execution carries with it the strength of the move. If the moves were “simplified” then they’d have to be nerfed accordingly. If a SPD was as simple to execute as a qcf then the move would have to be weakened drastically to be in line with the rest of the qcf moves.

Didn’t we just go through the discussion about how execution is a horrible way to balance a move?