I saw Raging Storm’s motion mentioned a few times. There is a legit reason why that super needed that motion: It usually has barely any start up and you can’t jump over or roll through it. And it’s usually completely invincible to boot. You also have to understand that Geese is usually top tier in all of his appearances for various reasons so giving him an easier motions to one of the best supers ever created would be downright stupid.
Rock’s RS, which we know someone will bring up, came from a game where you could parry/just defend it on reaction if you were in a flexible position. It makes a huge difference, hence why he can hold the SDM version(to throw off the opponent’s timing).
If execution were to change to a more skullgirls-like input system, I’d feel better if it were to be in newer franchises, because the execution in current franchises has stayed relatively similar across games, and although @d3v ‘s argument has merit, the fact still remains that execution as a balance method has been used in games, and rebalancing characters’ moves around easier inputs could result in the character changing enough to where people no longer want to play them. If, for instance, C. Viper were changed in SFV to where anyone could pick her up and do fierce-feint-fierce and all her other shenanigans without any training, she would have to be changed to reflect this, and people who loved the high-mixup and damage viper provided in exchange for a high skill floor would no longer have a reason to play her. Creating a baseline input ceiling where inputs are limited to qc and DP motions and basic charge stuff would ruin the asymmetric balance that current franchises are able to provide as a result of the debateably wrong method of move balancing.
Skullgirls was made without many expectations about how characters would function, and so low input difficulty worked. Not so much for current games where characters are expected to have certain qualities, like Gief with high-impact SPD or Viper with her shenanigans.
It’s called an imbalance when learning to do a difficult move well enough that it is no longer difficult negates the difficulty of the inputs in the first place. You are just left with a move that is too powerful because the supposed balancing mechanism is no longer doing it’s job. So in the end you’re just left with another useless barrier to entry. I don’t understand why you think this is asymmetry. A grappler vs a zoner is an asymmetrical balance because of how they are played. The inputs for their moves mean nothing in the end.
I think the major flaw this thread has is that it’s an issue regarding non-FG players being discussed BY people who are members of the FGC and have played fighting games for years in most cases. I’m trying to say it’s not worth discussing, but without having someone who’s not traditionally a fighting game player in the mix, I don’t see what’s to be accomplished.
It seems like it would be better discussed amongst fighting game devs as well. A debate could be had based on game design philosophy alone, but a bunch of people who have will likely have no impact on the situation won’t accomplish much.
I think I see what some people are coming from with the whole decision and execution clashing. Lately their been few games I simply have no patience for playing because I couldn’t keep up what was going on.
Recently I became frustrated with GGXRD character “Leo” because I had hard time controlling him, even when I finally became aware of his option, being able to execute on demand was frustrating experience. IN matches I felt like i wasn’t even playing any more because I couldn’t focus on the match but instead “what can I do”.
This left very bitter taste in my mouth. This became issue when I try going back to i-n0 who also odd ball character to control, My training just felt monotony of rewriting muscle memory experience instead of me figuring out ways to improve my gameplay.
This would work if people in srk didnt act like fucking retards when you explain how things look to outsiders. I have the somewhat luck of being able to expose random stuff to friends that really arent into it.
Guess how many times i’ve had srk tell me i’m pulling things out of my ass? This place is extra tardy lately, i blame certain threads for lowering the reading level of srk.
I kinda get what he’s saying. Characters like Honda are balanced around piano techniques that maybe 5% of the community can do consistently. Making it so if you don’t do these techniques they are dead characters in competition. This could be easily fixed by changing the amount of inputs or motions but it seems like capcom frowns upon defensive style fighters.
Street Fighter 4 is probably THE WORST example of modern day fighters in terms of being concise and easy to understand and it’s generally the first one anyone plays. Executionally its the hardest SF game there is in my opinion, and not because we’re talking about high level stuff either, but because a lot of the game is arbitrarily difficult or because it’s not well designed.
Honestly, I think we’re already seeing devs do the opposite and balance despite execution in certain cases. I mean, how many times have we seen grapplers end up mid or low tier, even after just a few months.
As for Viper. Skullgirls already had a similar example - Peacock bomb cancels. As I previously mentioned, these were quite tricky to do in the earlier versions but ended up quite strong. Eventualy though, Mike simplified them while making them slightly weaker, but at the end of the day, it didn’t really change the way she was played.
If your arcade noly had SFII then it was a pretty crappy arcade. Growin up my local arcade had over 30 games not named Street Fighter II for people who thought SFII was too complicated or whatever other excuse they needed.
Do whatever you want with your money, we don’t fucking care. Honest truth.
You see, this right here is the essence of it all. ‘Others might not learn as fast.’ That is to say, no actual problems exist, but they can of course be hallucinated if you are so inclined.
Again with the necessity, just like @d3v, just like Mike Z in that video he posted. ‘Difficult inputs are not needed.’ What a weird thing to say. And what does it even mean? What has necessity to do with anything? Clearly the inputs are not made like this because anything was ‘needed’ but because the games are that much better for it.
First off, I have already demonstrated this negation to be completely false:
So why keep repeating this simple mistake? The Raging Storm input is never negated; it remains, always, one of the move’s defining characteristics.
Secondly, the strange thing about this argument is this:
Nobody has a problem when one player beats the other by virtue of his decisions.
Nobody has a problem when one player beats the other by virtue of his knowledge of the game.
Nobody has a problem when one player beats the other by virtue of his reaction speed.
But now, when one player beats the other by virtue of his execution, all of a sudden you cry foul, the game is imbalanced?!
It doesn’t make any sense to say because he practiced so much, the move is no longer hard for him. No more than it would to say the same exact thing about any other skill! ‘It’s not fair! He knew exactly when to use that move because he has so much experience, the decision was no longer hard for him! ’ Every skill can be trained, how does that negate anything? It doesn’t, on the contrary, the game should reward skill and it does.
It all comes down to the same ‘real game’ fallacy; as though the execution wasn’t part of the real game, as though it was somehow magically separate from it. Only by committing this fallacy, only by hallucinating the inputs to be something altogether separate from the game itself, can it appear to make any sense at all to complain about a game rewarding skillful play.
I do however, agree with this. Street Fighter IV is poorly designed, and the way one frame links are implemented is one of its many flaws. That’s saying nothing against execution in general though, the EWGF for instance, is a perfect example of a just frame input done right. Also, for all its flaws, SFIV is still easy to pick up for beginners.
I don’t think SF4 was designed with one frame links being the focus. The developers probably didn’t expect people to master these links. It’s just that certain top players were able to master them and raised the bar as to what was necessary to win. These players made it so that if you didn’t master those links as well, you couldn’t compete.
Execution is part of the real game? So a high level player in a tournament is limited by his ability to execute a move? Nope, the execution requirements aren’t even relevant at that point. The real game is knowing the mechanics, the counters, fast(and correct) reactions, and reading your opponent. By your logic, anything associated with playing the game is the real game. The television is part of the real game. The arcade stick is part of the real game. The car you drove to get to the tournament is part of the real game. They are all factors in your success, right? Without any of them, there is no game for you.
No, those are things intrinsic to the game, but they aren’t things that define the game. The inputs are simply tools to play the game.