Fighting games are pretty niche already. This is probably the single greatest thing that makes people leave these games. When you need to input a DP motion followed by a half circle back and then a forwards diagonal to pull off a super, you might as well ask for a haiku and the blood of a virgin in your command list as well. The way I see it? There are two solutions; custom inputs and better design from the developers. “Easy/Stylish/Simple” mode is garbage and needs to be dropped ASAP.
The first solution, allowing custom inputs, sort of like SSFIV3DE would be a great idea. Instead of those long inputs as I mentioned before, you could set it to a custom half circle back only. This would need some restraints however, charge moves like Sonic Boom would still require a charge, or be delayed etc etc. This is the worse of the two in my opinion.
Second, better design. From a developer that has taken a basic college psychology course. Some examples, mostly applying to challenge mode
motivation: In your challenge mode provide in game cash for every challenge completed. The final challenge could give a special unlockable gallery art piece for example.
Repetition: provide the ability to reset and redo a challenge instantly, and give a larger bonus for every successful repetition.
Scaffolding: The combos get more challenging as you progress, but build off each other to make it easier. Linking one move into another is how the challenges proceed, not a whole new sequence every time.
These are just a few examples. What do you think could be done to improve the execution barrier, so we can spend more time actually playing rather than building muscle memory for months on end?
Might as well put specials, supers and ultra’s on 1 button. Or entire sequences of combos at the press of a button…jk
Part of the reason people play fighting games, and the ones that stick with it, is the satisfying feeling you get when landing a combo you’ve actually practiced for. It shows the fruits of your labour. There has to be AN excecutional barrier, unfortunately how high this barrier needs to be for veterans to still get any fulfillment from it and beginners not having the feeling of trying to climb an insurmountable wall is subjective.
I agree with your suggestion of how to teach players basic excecution by motivating them, in turn reward repetition and climbing the difficulty ladder incrementally by making it slightly harder everytime. The thing with challenges in games like USFIV, KOF etc etc was that they were meant as challenges and not meant to guide the player on how to learn their combos and such.
My own view, i feel anything more than quarter circles, haf circles and dragon-punch motions is unnecessary and anything more than 2 frame links is just adding an artifical difficulty… for the sake of making it difficult. The point is to excecute the moves to play the game, not to make it a game to excecute these moves, if you catch my drift. I even think double quarter or double half circle inputs are dumb. Funny enough is that these inputs are actually not what are causing a lot of the problems by themselves, it is the combination of them being done in quick succession with other motions and (timed) button presses. UMvC3 has ABC combos, two button dashes, in general it is pretty “easy” to do basic things. It is because it is such an open ended combo system that the excecution barrier can end up really high, and such an open ended system is also what can make it so fun.
Only way to really control excecutional barriers is by having preset combos…which makes the game extremely limited, and unfun. Your suggestion of allowing custom inputs for moves only helps with how to perform these moves, eventually they still have to perform these things in quick succession and in combination with motions and button presses, thus creating an excecutional barrier which requires effort to overcome. However if motions are simplified, and a small buffer is implemented for both specials, dashes, links etc it does a LOT to bring in beginners.
Lastly, although i dislike obnoxious inputs and extremely tight timings, there has to be atleast some excecutional barrier, fighting games cannot be just purely be about just strategy. Reactions and dexterity need to play a part. There has to be put in some effort otherwise playing a fighting game does not feel rewarding. Some people are stronger with strategies and tactics while others are proficient on a controller/stick/keyboard, some have excellent reactions. It is these things which allow people to find their own playstyle and they’ll play to their strengths.
There is a lot to be said on the subject and i’m no game designer, this is just from my own experiences and how i feel about it.
Because it’s a risk/reward mechanic. It’s basically like the RNG system you see in other games (% chance to hit, etc.) except that it’s totally within the players control. The difference is that, instead of always dealing with a certain % chance to fail, constant practice helps you get over this.
That said, there are certain limits and certain things that do go overboard. Stuff like SNK style pretzel motions are pretty much pointless IMO. We can go even further with Mike Z (Skullgirls lead developer and MvC2 and GG player) who believes that motions should mostly be basic (qcf, dp, qcb, sonic boon, flash kick) until you actually run out of available motions and start to have overlaps.
Nope. You need to build a game around that one thing. Or it will break the balance of the game. I heard that Guile is OP as hell in SSFIV3DE because you don’t need charge anything and just press a button to spam Sonic Boom.
KoF 13 did something like this with achievements, target actions and mission mode.
Phantom breaker does just that. Every action is merely a button press. at the same time PB changes alot of additional game rules to compensate.
Because it’s part of what makes fighting games fighting games, people who just want pure strategy can go play a strategy game and people who just want pure execution can go plsy Skate or Guitar Hero.
Complaining about execution requirements is just like a scrub complaining about how he’s got to get past zoning and the opponent’s guard before he can do his combo.
Yet some of those game mention don’t have competition. Fighting game are unique because it brigs both strategy, execution and competition to the table.
I’m not sure if The OP has played many fighter, if so he/she would know that fighter come in many shape and forms. I’m not fan of high execution games but that my problem and i settle it by not playing it.
OP try playing other fighter more. you’ll be surprise varied they can be.
At the end of the day, the genre is a combination of both strategy and execution. You need to be smart enough to know what to do, and skilled enough to pull it off.
That said, there is something to be said about how high the execution barrier should be.
Too many video game players are lazy and have ego’s about how theyre the best video game player on the planet, and fighting games really dash all that nonsense. Either they dont want to put effort to learn the game, or they lose and just write off games as for people below them. I mean, sports use BALLS to play, and people accept they cant play the games, but when it comes to fighting games because theyre video games people expect to be great at it off the bat and then they see how games are really played and give up.
Honestly if special moves and supers were one button people would still complain about the games being too hard even though they wanted an easier game to play. The meta game about when to attack or not attack would weed those people out.
Yeah, I play a lot of different fighters, Tekken, Soul Calibur, Persona, Blazblue(favorite one), Marvel, Punch Out(lol jk). And you look at something like SCII, considered the best in the series by many, and you see how it doesn’t have these crazy inputs. And then there’s things like Hazama’s Astral input in Blazblue. Or Ivy’s command grab in SCV. This is the kind of stuff that needs to go back to the arcades.
I mean I partially agree with you, but in a different way. Being a long time Soul Calibur player though, Ivy’s command grabs have always been a bit strange (input-wise). This isn’t even taking into account the just frame version of one of them that makes it way better. Soul Calibur is a tricky one. Yeah, most of the commands are simpler, but there is a different layer of execution that drastically puts you on top if you can do them properly. Cervantes and Sophitia were my mains throughout the entire span of the series and they both gained just frame moves along the way. Cervantes had his instant drill move and Sophitia had her Just Frame back input on her stabs. Both were pretty much required to be perfected if you were going to play either character properly in order to effectively punish. I know other characters had crazy just frame stuff too. Some in which would turn unsafe moves safe or make them way way better. I also think SCV really toned this stuff down. They have this input shortcut system that simplified a lot of stuff. Also the windows for Just Frames appears to have increased a bit in some areas.
Anyways, I agree that some overly complex inputs are a bit unnecessary, but that’s not the real thing that keeps a lot of new players out. For me, it was links. I didn’t really start playing any 2 fighter until SS4 came out. I could do the special motions, but the links were very difficult for me. I remember being irritated at some links that were 1 frame for what seemed like no reason. I play mostly charge characters and I’d get 200-300 damage off a one frame when other characters rolled in with pretty easy combos that did way more. That always confused me. I kept at it and eventually it wasn’t that big of a deal, but I still don’t think 1 frame links are necessary. 2 frame links are pushing it a bit. Personally, I am of the opinion that 3 frame links should be the minimum since anyone who cares enough to learn how to play the game can do it pretty consistently and can learn how to do it pretty quickly.
This is a god damned joke, right?
All do with respect but if you have issue with said game or mechanics than why are you even playing them? Play different character or different game.
What about game like SFxT Darkstalker 2? Melty blood, Battle fantasia? these game lean more on the strategy side. Heck good portion of the 80’s and 90s fighter might be up your alley.
Oh you misunderstand Keo-Bas, I personally have gotten used to most of these, apart from the two mentioned above and some others. I mean when I was first starting out, these were a pain. A real mess. I persevered and got through it, but many other people would not. The single most common complaint I get when trying to get others into these games is “The inputs are too hard. I don’t have time to spend 3 hours a day practicing this stuff.” Heck that’s how I felt starting out. If these issues were resolved, the player base could grow much larger.
I see my bad for the assumption. I’m just not sure if execution is the problem. all games is not made for everyone. including over glorifies sf4…
Just fucking practice. You dont see guitar players complain that songs are too hard to pull off and that song writers should change the notations, just practice it and itll be easier. I mean the only hard inputs I can think of that should be easier are KOF 02/UM hyper super desperation moves.
they do actually. many musicians stop playing their instruments because the technical hurdles are too large. you learn an instrument because you want to make music, not because you want to sit in a practice room 2 hours a day for 5 years before you can really play your instrument at a functional level.
in everything there’s “the reason you wanted to do that thing” and “the hurdle you have to overcome to do that thing.” the bigger the hurdle before you can actually do what you came to do, the fewer people will stick around.
Oh, yeas, is a new year so it is time to get one of those threads again.
I’d appreciate if some of you guys could sound less condescending. Look at at Smash, that series wasn’t even made with competition in mind. Yet because it’s so easy to get into, people eventually shifted from casuals to serious, and it has a vibrant community now. To this day I see more Smash players at my locals than anything else. But when the bar of entry is set as high as it is for games like BlazBlue, most people will leave before they get good.
The less you respect yourself and others for doing these things though.
I got wrecked in a set vs. a guy in 3S today went like 2-20 for him. Couldn’t get mad at him because I know how much time went into him being able to do this shit to me though.
I would admire great guitar/piano or basketball players less if I knew that what they do is easy.
I mean honestly I’m all for making things simpler, but without the insane execution requirement shit like EVO Moment 37 and the fighting games themselves aren’t quite the same.
Fuck SFIV 1-framers though.
I’m all for a better learning curve in terms of combos and well thought out reward systems for single player though.
You even have a clue how hard playing Smash on a high level is?
WTF man?