Actually, they worked it out, Ryu has more ways to land ultra than Rufus does.
lol obvious troll is obvious
Well along with a new iteration comes new balance. Who’s to say Sagat and Ryu are better than everyone in everything in Super? My opinion is I would rather have a fast rush down or mixup character like Dudley or Ibuki or Makoto or Guy as top tier than a character that just has to sit back, chuck plasma, and AA you if you get close to win, because I think that takes less skill than successfully rushing your enemy down, breaking through his defenses, and hurting him for some serious damage because he couldn’t read your attack correctly. It’s just my opinion, of course, and I know it won’t happen.
The only person who has a good chance of bumping characters out of the top spot in Super from what I see id Dudley, since it appears he has average stamina with some great combos and great offensive tools, but we’ll see. Guy already has reduced stamina, and Makoto and Ibuki are girls, so they’ll have reduced stamina, and all 3 of them are very reliant on gimmicky mix up and cross up much like Sakura is in SF4, and once they get figured out they’ll have a much harder time fighting against everyone.
For Dudley to be top tier, he doesn’t need to be braindead in any way. They could, for instance:
- Make his specials more or less unsafe on block, forcing intelligent combos, spacing and footsies. Then, give him pretty good hitboxes on certain cancelable normals (st.HK for instance) which still lets him buffer into these moves reliably.
- Instead of relying on is-he-going-to-DP-FADC-or-not mechanics a lot of the high tier has, they can allow Dudley to have a solid high-low mixup game, which is something that virtually no one in SF4 has right now. He won’t have a crossup (presumably), but he can still be scary on knockdown in ways other SF4 characters aren’t.
By giving him adequate control over the ground and the air, and giving him ultra setups (which it seems like all the new characters will have in spades), I don’t see why he can’t challenge the top tiers and yet still be a very interesting character to play. I think Dudley translates nearly verbatim over to the SF4 engine as well as any of the three 3rd Strike characters; good ground control, good high-low game on knockdown which leads to damaging combos, and one semi-solid way around fireballs (ducking) is all he needs. How would using these tools be any more “braindead” than, say, Ryu?
Well we still haven’t seen if Thunderbolt crosses up yet, so he could have that, making him even better on ground control. Not to mention Cross Counter taking out Sagat’s uppercut means good anti-wakeup options, which not too many characters have in SF4.
Until you play against a good opponent you’ll never understand how difficult a good zoning game truely is. It takes just as much timing, if not more than rushing at someone like mad. In either case, I want Dudley to be good. I want him to be a smart character, not a dumb one. I don’t plan on maining him, since I already am going to be putting in work with my current main Guile and my secondary Guy. I’m just saying, based on history, typically heavy offensive characters who end up top tier end up being really really dumb.
And for the record, Rufus has been on the decline for the past 5 months. He is not in Ryu’s tier by a long shot.
Ibuki was top tier in the first 2 SF3 games. She only lost that spot when they took away her SA3.
Guy has always been solid. I would say he’s the only rushdown character who isn’t totally dumb at a competitive level. A decent Guy play needs proper spacing and good footsies to start their rusdhown. Guy has the smartest Rushdown and pressure game of any character I’ve seen in a fighting game ever.
With that said, Ryu and Sagat are fine as top tiers because they are usually very balanced designs. If they are working that means the game remains interesting and versatile. That also means that there is less of a random factor. In games where some rushdown character persist, there is typically a lot of randomness that gets them there. And typically high level matches revolve on looking for an opporunity to get your 80% damage combo and some stupid nigh unescapable canned mixup.
LOL @ rushdown characters being top tier = a broken game.
You ever play any King of Fighters Games boy?
oh and as a fellow guile player, i can proudly say zoning takes less skill then rushdown. ESPECIALLY in sf4.
So bye bye to your post.
lol, zoning isn’t that strong in SFIV. So I’m not sure what your’re taking about. Unless you just play idiots who just walk into fireballs all day. I’m talking about zoning people who are smart enough to get around them. When you play people like that, you can’t sit here and tell me zoning is still easy. Especially in a game like SFIV which gives a lot of characters free ways to get around fireballs. I’m sure it takes mad skills for Zangief players just to mash ex greenhand all match to be in someones face, and start his stupid crossover b.s.
In either case, yes, I can say in SF games typically games where a rushdown character sits on top, the games is usually pretty dumb. I can’t think of many games where the aforementioned rushdown character does not have some TKD combo that puts him/her there. In other games like GGXXAC it’s different, since the game is designed around rushdown. In SF, there is a usually a good mixture of playstyles so you aren’t FORCED to play any particular way.
And yeah, I do think it’s dumb when 1 combo can make a character god tier. I don’t think a top tier spot should rely on the ability to land one combo. That makes the game REALLY one dimensional.
And to all you Ryu haters, try to main Ryu and see how far you get. Try to main Sagat and see how far you get. You won’t get far. It takes way more effort to be comeptitive with those two characters (no matter how good they are) than it is to be competitive with a broken tier Dudley or Ibuki.
For the sake of humanity, I believe Dudley and Ibuki (and Mak while were on the topic) need to be solid mids or mid highs at best. I fear top tier rush down characters.
HERE WE GO AGAIN!
I never said zoning was easy, I said it was universal. There’s a big difference there.
Just as much timing? I don’t think so. Rushing at someone not only do you have to plan out your attack, but you have to take into account your opponents defense to your attack, and with the range you only have split seconds to make your decision. In a fireball trap game, you’ve got all the time in the world because of the distance, and the options are far fewer than when someone is in your face.
During fireball zoning, your opponent’s options are:
A) Jump forward over fireballs
B) Neutral jump over fireballs
C) Use own fireball to start fireball war
D) Use focus/parry/Just defend/etc. depending on game to eat fireball and keep moving
E) Use special move with invulnerability to go trough fireball
F) Block fireball
This is all at a distance, so you’re not under as much pressure if you make a mistake. At the worst you take a fireball or give in some spacing.
During some good ol’ RTSD your opponent’s options are:
A) Use special move to beat out normals/oncoming special
B) Use normals as footsies or pokes to stop enemy from approaching
C) Use focus/parry/Just Defend/etc. to take the hit and counter
D) Jump away
E) Dash back
F) Block and wait for opening
G) Counter rush down
H) Throw
I) Use Super/Ultra to counter
This is while the enemy is in your face and the slightest mistake can make you eat a full combo for massive damage.
I’d like to hear your explanation of how said characters are dumb, as the level of thought required to play those characters correctly is staggering with how many options they have on the offensive and maintaining unpredictability which is what those characters live on.
Cool source, bro.
I haven’t been able to dig up any information on SF3NG, but I have a feeling her SA3 was not the main problem even if she was top tier in NG.
Very nice opinions, but again, you haven’t said what makes these heavy offensive types stupid, so I’m going to ignore those types of comments. As well as Guy being solid, Mid-Tier in the Alpha series is like Low-Tier in SF4. Yeah sure, they HAVE gimmicks and are technically playable, but at high level they just don’t hold up.
I had no idea better than everyone else is a balanced design. How are you going to say Top Tier rush down characters aren’t balanced but unstoppable turtles ARE balanced? And Ryu and Sagat working making the game interesting and versatile, I disagree. Interesting hell no, because fighting an enemy that doesn’t move isn’t very interesting to me and versatile hell no because there’s nothing varying in their approach, it’s the same thing a million times over, but I digress, theses are merely opinions and have no barring in debate.
As for that last bit about inescapable mixups, looks like you’re not very good at reading an attack which is why you favor turtling to rush down. Nothing wrong with that, but throwing around these bold accusations over such is just silly.
I don’t even have to say anything about this post, it proves everything in my last post before I even had time to post it.
^^^i don’t understand why you’re responding to him…deadass
he’s obviously salty because (in case u missed his post which i doubt you did) he’s a GUILE player…of course he’s scared of the 3s characters being rush-down orientated. He prefers zoning because thats what his main has. Of course his arguements are flawed because essentially the only way to get hit in any fighting game is to press buttons…which a rushdown character will be doing a good 75-80% of the time…its risky shit generally, but if a player can make it as if those risks are seemingly reduced to very low, than he is godlike. Zoning is about pressing as little buttons as possible while keeping your presense on the screen…not saying its easy to do to perform but its a lot less risky
The big difference between me and you is that I clearly have played rushdown style before. I know what it takes to have a solid rushdown game. You clearly don’t know what it takes to have a good zoning game. Anticipation, prediction, timing, and reaction all goes into good zoning. And not only that, you need really good spacing as well. The same applies to rushdown as well. They both take a hell of a lot of skills, especially when you’re zoning out smart opponents. Why don’t you try zoning and you’d see how hard it is keeping out really good players with good footsies and spacing.w
A character can also abuse their priority. And their entire game could revolve around fishing for combos. A lot of novice rushdown players do this. They love to fish for some random poke into a combo. Typically this doesn’t require that much thinking since the said character will more than likely outprioritize anything you’d throw out. Also giving characters simply options to close the distance is a trademark of top tier rushdown characters. So if you combine incredibly simple ways to close distance, and the ability to just randonmly stick stuff out and convert it into big damage. You have a character requiring no thought. People will argue it require execution, but top tier combos usually don’t require that much execution.
Ibuki could start links from jabs, go into SA3, and she could start a freakin infinite off of it. That was in NG. In 2I, she has followups into crazy ambigious mixups. But you’re already stunned out, and the mixup is really hard to see. So you’d more than likely get stunned, and if you got stunned you were pretty much dead. And she only needed one opporunity, and that oppornunity wasn’t that hard for her to get. Considering her mobility and priority and all.
You know notihng of Guy. Guy has never relied on gimmicks At his core he has always had a solid ground game, and really good mixups. That’s why he’s never been trash. You can actually use guy effectively and STILL be playing Street Fighter. He isn’t C. Viper or Rufus where you can rushdown with them, and not know a damn thing about footsies. Guy is not gimmicky, he’s incredibly solid.
Ryu and Sagat in SFIV aren’t turtle characters. I guess you could play them that way, but they don’t need to be played that way. If Sagat was simply a turtle, he wouldn’t be THAT bad. The problem is he can turtle, and he can rush you down. And not only that he puts the fear of God into you and make you afraid to attack him because he has FADC ultra. Ryu is the same way, but with less damage. I mean, you have Mago and Daigo who dominate Japan with those charactes, and neither of them play turtle style.
And umm, turtling is all about anticipating moves. Not exactly sure what you think turtling is, but it a little more than just sitting back doing nothing.
I love how you called him out on that because it’s true. JohnGrimm/Squidward can’t play fighting games for anything. He only plays practice mode while on keyboard and pretends to know what he’s talking about. Pretty sad actually
HEEEEEEEEEEEERE HE IISSSSSSSSS, THE SAAAAAAALTIEST MAN IN THE UUUUUUUNIVERSE.
There needs to be a pageant for this on SRK, seriously. I think Branh here takes it.
I don’t need to bother replying to your comments any more, since you’ve reduced your arguments to mere insults rather than refuting my points.
All I’m going to say is my mains in SF4 are Gouken and Fei Long (spacing AND rush down?! That’s absurd!)
Alpha 2 Main is Guy (He’s a mix of gimmick and solid in A2 and if you disagree then you sir do not know anything about Guy)
Third Strike mains are Dudley and Ken
SSF4 I will be maining Gouken, Fei, Guy, and Dudley
Enjoy your tired Guile zoning while me and my top tier rush down will be enjoying what SF4 has become: a fairly balanced game requiring skill.
Funny thing is that your Alpha 2 Guy is pretty shit, you’re not good at 3s, and I highly doubt you’re going to be going anywhere far in SSFIV. Callin you out. Please look… a noob
lol, what a joke. I don’t believe I insulted you once. okay I made a supposition that you have never played a zoning game, which doesn’t seem too far off. Guilty as charge, but I don’t think that qualifies as an insult. But when you say SFA2 is all gimmick, I just have to laugh. What gimmicks could Guy have in a game where you can blowout CC nearly everything? I guess SFA2 Guy doesn’t have anything like s.FP, S.MK, S.MP or any solid pokes like that huh. And I’m guessing he has no tools to bait CC activation, and require not thought. He is just a one note gimmick character who has no solid tools like a crazy good ground game. Funny how you learn something new every day.
But on to Dudley, this is his thread. I wonder if his pokes are going to be as godlike as Balrogs. I’m already having nightmares about this guy. I’m guessing it will be harder for him to build meter, since he can no longer whiff normals, and his whiffing his specials leave him unsafe. I also like to know how he’ll work in a game where zoning is important and effective
I wish people would stop saying things like “you’re not playing Street Fighter when you pick Viper or Rufus”. They’re different styles than the traditional, maybe. Their character design (Viper) seems to be influenced by other games, maybe. But they still operate in the SF4 engine, and they still have to play by the same rules. Viper plays footsies, she just does it in a different way than a shoto cr.MK. Her ultimate goal is not to get you to jump into an uppercut (well, kinda), or run into a bunch of well-positioned pokes, but she’s still playing the game.
If she’s not your style of character, that’s totally fine. But I guarantee you, Viper is making the game fun for someone out there, and they’re playing Street Fighter just as much as you.
Anyway. Back to Dudley. He’s going to be awesome in this game, top-tier or not. Dudley wasn’t mindless in 3rd Strike and he won’t be mindless here. He needed to have perfect control of his normals and his hit confirms to do well. Getting big combos off knockdown required decent execution, spacing, and unpredictability. Landing a cr.HK midscreen in footsies is not easy or mindless. And I’m looking forward to playing him.
Cool reading comprehension man. Because I certainly said Guy was entirely gimmick with nothing solid about him.
I’m not discussing this anymore with you, you’re just so salty.
Does anyone have the Dudley artwork with no background?
Gamespot does.
And fuck all of you with the tier talk. Choose a character, fuck the tier positioning.