You SPD’d me out of a fully extended headbutt the other day. I’ve done it to Blanka’s roll once or twice myself, but I’m never sure if it’s just rollback/latency or if it’s legit.
Sweet. I’ve never did it to blankas regular rolls. I try to throw him out of super whenever my distance on the startup negates it.
So today’s realization is how good Honda’s cr. strong is against Guile.
Alright, you guys know the drill. You’re “almost in” on Guile, you’ve got a down charge. Level 1 of that situation is that Guile throws a sonic boom, you reaction buttslam it, Guile high blocks the buttslam, then you either “hug + safe crossup roundhouse + low jab + NE Ochio” Guile for like 70% damage or you just follow up with HHS for guaranteed chip and pushback.
Then level 2 of that situation is when Guile wises up to that and starts jumping right after throwing a boom, in prediction of your buttslam (basically everything he has in the air stuffs your buttslam cleanly). So now you must guess right between “Guile will jump after the boom” (you have to NOT buttslam, then just headbutt him when he lands) or “Guile will NOT jump after the boom” (go ahead and buttslam). That’s kind of annoying, and if Guile jumps a lot then you’ll often do some lame chip damage, so every now and then you attempt to walk-up hug him as a kind of instant kill, or you attempt a quick jab -> HHS for some quick damage. Maybe you just walk-up far sweep to shut down sonic booms semi-safely, and push him back to the corner.
The next level is when Guile knows about these alt tactics and shuts them down too with a patient use of low forwards every time you get close, keeping his down charge ready to stuff anything airborne you can attempt. Now, if you’ve got a back charge and are willing to give up position on a wrong guess, you can always try to headbutt to beat the low kicks, but that loses to Guile low jabs and sonic booms so it’s kind of situational. Note: jab headbutt works a bit better when the Guile is sonic boom-happy, fierce headbutt works better when the Guile relies more on reaction flash kicks.
So anyway, headbutts are ok, but pretty situational. So what else can you do to get around Guile’s low forward? Turns out that Honda’s low strong tends to stuff Guile’s low forward really really well! Using it can make Guile hesitate to use low forward, so it opens up your alt tactics again (walk-up hug, far sweep, HHS). Just be aware that low strong doesn’t deal big damage by itself, and it loses to Guile’s level 1 plan of “oh hey I’ll throw a sonic boom!”
Actually I use cr.forward to counter Guile’s cr.forward a lot. Cr.strong has a little more range but cr.forward is a little faster (and easier to just spam out there a couple times in a row in anticipation of a low forward). Honda’s cr.forward > Guile’s cr.forward almost 100% of the time. The one problem with cr.strong is sometimes smart Guile’s will wise up and if you throw it out there too often in obvious low forward situations they will look for it and Fierce Boom or Roundhouse Flashkick it. Cr.Forward seems to be a little bit harder to punish (quicker recovery).
I will sometimes follow my cr.forward with HHS (hit or block), but not everytime because the follow-up HHS can be Flashkicked if the Guile expecting it.
If you have your ranges really down you can walk forward and cr.short ->HHS as soon as you get into Guile’s cr.forward range, but that’s a bit harder and riskier (could eat a Fierce Boom or a Flashkick).
All those matches I used to play with Marsgatti online came in usefull, LOL.
Vs Guile/Deejay I usually only use Cr.Mp if I’m close enough to stuff boom/Max out and normals. It works well because it tends to trick the player into doing more stuff that looses their down charge. MORE JUMP INS =D
Cr.Mp has the same use in the Dee Jay match.
Cr.Mp seems to trick shotos into doing stupid things.
Cr.Mp tends to stuff sim’s limbs more often than other normals.
Cr.Mp will most likely help you greatly in any match. (Too lazy to list why =P… Kill me)
@ Thelo
"hug + safe crossup roundhouse + low jab + NE Ochio"
Last time I saw you play a Guile that's all you did given the chance. You should try to mix it up with one or two jabs into another hug(good for block or hit), or if you hit him definitely do a combo into hands for Ochio set up or another hug. < Deadly on Vst
(mix up works just as well vs sim, and sometimes chun)
You probably already know this and perform these mix ups, but I think I should post it anyway just for people that don't know. =P Also, these tactics rarely fail me. Only lag and me playing extra casual has been the cause of fail for these mix ups.Cr.strong works well against DeeJay’s slide but it tends to lose to DJ’s cr.forward kick from certain ranges (which knocks down, not where Honda wants to be). I have much more success with cr.Forward which beats slide clean and usually beats DJ cr.forward. DJ cr.forward also tends to beat Honda’s cr.jab from all but max range so need to watch that as well.
Guile mix-ups - After the bear-hug and cross-up HK I just HHS combo if it hits (usually round winner) or tick NE Ochio if it’s blocked (safe from reversals).
But the best thing to use on Guile is actually the HK knee-bash. After the HK throw you get a safe-jump roundhouse, if it’s blocked you get another free HK throw. If it hits you get HHS combo ->possible Ochio (round winner). If he reversals you block and can walk up and throw again. Basically if you get the throw in it’s guaranteed safe damage on the follow up (unless you mess up your safe jump timing or he’s too close to the corner). Works on Guile, DeeJay (w/o Super), Chun (W/O Super), Balrog (W/O Super), Bison (W/O Super), Sim (W/O Super). Kinda works on Vega, he can backflip out of the loop but you can punish the backflip with HHS or Headbutt.
Yeah, I need to start punishing that. I’ve been running into a lot of Vegas lately that reaaaly like that damn backflip escape. Wish they took that off PPP/KKK (or whatever, I don’t play Vega) and put it on a charge motion so they can’t just jam on it to get out of any meaty situation.
You can punish the backflip with Headbutt for the knockdown (if you have charge) but tricky Vega’s will mix up the one-flip and two-flip versions so if you guess wrong you will wiff the HB and get thrown. I usually just jam on Fierce for the HHS for the easy damage against either flip.
I think HP is still the better choice for most of the match ups you listed. For Dee Jay, bison, rog J.Mk after hug, and either go for another hug or Cr.Lk into hands for throw set up. Try to always do the hands combo if you hit the guy. People tend to take the hit so they can trick you into a tick attempt while they have charge.
Good stuff guys, I’ll check out cr. forward in particular more, I rarely use it at the moment.
I actually don’t see why HK kneebash would be better against Guile? HP hug also leads to safe-jump roundhouse and you can do all these exact same tricks, but HP hug has more range (and damage?) and it turns the safejump roundhouse into a crossup, so it just seems strictly better?
Yeah
Plus you’re closer to Guile/(almost everyone listed) after HP throw. Good for many reasons.
I have recently tested all Hondas throws and holds in ST, and they had the same range. Thus, T. Akiba’s data is right for VST. As the two holds are different (fierce gets the enemy’s sprites near Honda) and such a change is not listed, I would guess those tests were still valid for STHD. It might be just the different animations causing an illusion.
HP and HK throw have the same range. The HP throw doesn’t always turn into a cross-up, depends on where you are on the stage, the direction you’re facing, and possibly how fast they mash-out.
The cross-up isn’t always the best option, if they block it they can reversal throw your tick throw attempt (since you’re closer). The HK throw (or HP throw if it doesn’t cross-up) also gives a safe jump roundhouse but puts right at the edge of your throw range, so you get an **UN-REVERSABLE **follow up throw (he can’t Flashkick because he stood up to block the jump-in and your outside he’s throw range so he can’t reversal throw).
So you can just keep safejumping then HK grabbing until you reach the corner or he’s dead. The only thing he can do is take the hit, which you can then combo (you can cr.short->HHS combo right into another grab). The loop ends up taking off more damage and taking them to the corner, which is a better situation than getting a blocked cross-up with NE Ochio follow-up.
The only time the cross-up is better is if it hits and you can HHS combo, Ochio which usually kills them. I usually go for the HP grap, cross-up, combo until they start blocking the cross-up, then I start HK grab, looping them. I’ve ended a lot of rounds in a few seconds against Guiles by doing a surprise walk-up HP grab to start the round, Cross-up follow, HHS combo, Ochio, round over, LOL. After that it gets much harder to grab them, LOL.
The same works for Chun, Bison and Sim. For DeeJay and Balrog the HP throw doesn’t cross-up so you can use the loop with either throw. My main strategy against DeeJay is to try and wait intil I can get a grab in and then do the loop for big damage and get him into the corner with me right on top of him. You can win the round with one grab.
That’s why I mix up with one or two standing jabs into my next throw, standing jab into crouching short, into hands or headbutt(which can combo). Doing a crouching short or two after RH cross up is also a good tactic to counter throw mashing. Plus you can combo into hands.
But I get what you’re saying about the whole “safest” thing to do stuff. I just prefer to get a lot out of something that does not have much risk.
Also, I’m happy you brought this up Thelo. I haven’t seen this info anywhere and I’m too big of a slacker to just randomly write about it.
Yeah, and when you get him in the corner Cr.Lp into NE Ochio is extremely good. < obviously A LOT better in VST. The HDR bounce back after Ochio kind of hurts you.
You get the same options off the HK grab but without the need to mix it up (keeps it simple), they block you get another free HK grab to keep the loop going, they take the hit you combo for big damage (preferably HHS combo right into another throw).
But really, Guile’s in trouble either way off of either grab, so whatever is more comfortable for you works.
I miss NE Ochio loop in the corner from ST, so much fun (and would make people so mad, LOL).
Edit: Just to add another layer to what Thelo was saying about the Guile match-up: once you start countering Guile’s low forwards with your low forward (or cr.strong) some Guiles will start throwing out Guile’s forward rolling sobat (his towards+MK) which will counter your crouching move. A quick standing jab will counter that move and can be followed up with HHS (or quick walk up throw). He loses both his charges doing the move so that’s a good time for follow up pressure. Of course if you have charge you can also HB the move, but the bounce back from that pushes you back too far to keep the pressure on (and gives Guile time to get his charge back).
Speaking of Headbutt bounce back, I see a lot of people use HB’s in every clear punishment situation. In some cases I think it’s better to use the MK Sumo Smash instead. They both knock down and the HB does more damage, but the SS leaves you right next your downed opponent, in perfect position for meaty ticks or cross-ups. I’ll take position over damage any day in most match-ups. Just something else to think about.
Guile’s forward sobat beats Honda’s cr. strong at that range, really? I don’t remember a Guile using this but I thought cr. strong’s hitbox was beefy enough to stuff it, I’ll have to check that out.
I agree that buttslam > headbutt in many cases for that extra position. If I get to finally knockdown runaway bitches like Chun Li or Bison, then really it’s super valuable to stay close to them.
In a lot of situations, punishing with MP or HP handslaps is even better than punishing with MK buttslam, since it recovers even faster and you get to keep both your charges, for maximum fun afterward - and you can often whiff an extra handslaps right afterwards for a bit more meter. For instance if I block a lot of DP-style moves, I tend to punish with MP handslaps (buffer the MP button presses out of my blockstun, it knocks down), then another MP handslaps to gain position and meter, and from there I can threaten basically everything, including a crossup roundhouse buttslam.
Handslaps as a punish also works well against Chun-Li’s runaway sequence of walljump -> pogostomp your head -> air Spinning Bird Kick. You don’t need charge to do it, and just by chasing her with handslaps you’ll gain half your meter (important against her, to stop her endless fullscreen slow kikokens).
Obviously this doesn’t really work as a jump-in punish, stick with buttslam / headbutt / super for those.
I think your right and cr.strong usually will at least trade with the sobat, it’s mainly something to look out for if you use a lot of cr.forward (which I do for the faster recovery, can usually recover in time to block a boom if they threw that instead of sticking out the low forward I was expecting).
Thelo - You got any special tricks you use in the Claw match-up (especially run away Claws). I know the match-up pretty well, I usually just block or use Roundhouse SS to get out of Wall Dives. It’s just so boring and when I lose it’s because I get bored sitting in the corner and try to be aggresive. That’s probably my least favorite match-up (next to honda mirrors), I’d rather play against DeeJay or Ryu.
I don’t really use any special tricks in that matchup, usually the Vega player gets bored before I do. Mostly I use handslaps to advance and corner Vega (can lose to Vega pokes and jumps if you’re too predictable about it), and just stay really patient. If you manage to advance to midscreen and Vega is cornered, you can easily reaction fierce headbutt Vega whenever he uses that damn backjump fierce. Every now and then I’ll jump straight up or backwards on prediction to intercept a walldive off my own wall, and if they dive off their wall I attempt a reaction jab headbutt intercept (for non-fakes) / fierce headbutt punish (for fakes).
Obviously you know to crossup Vega after a KD for the kill, and that when you’re up in life you can retreat to a corner and downback all day. The only real annoying thing they can do when you’re downbacking in the corner is use clawrolls to chip, but it’s possible to reaction headbutt those if you’re on point. Oh, and you can’t headbutt once they touch your wall, so stick to short buttslam to punish their walldive in that case.
Handslaps are punishable on whiff on pure reaction for Claw.
Not a matter of being predictable or not.
Then it seems I’ve been fighting the wrong Claws, because I get away with it a pretty damn big portion of the time.