I guess you have.
<s-kill> the “hands assault” from honda is reasonable play by thelo, but mostly bluff
<s-kill> you can counter in a variety of ways, even cr. strong or slide
<s-kill> tho they’re risky
<s-kill> as in, you need to be anticipating hands, then counter.
<s-kill> if you SEE hands, then think “ahh, hands–I should counter!” then he probably has enough time to stop hands and do something that could counter your attempted counter
<s-kill> so it’s immediately or don’t bother
So according to s-kill, it specifically is an anticipation counter, and not pure reaction. Right?
Edit: By the way, where is that chat log from?
No he’s saying that you have to be ready to react to punish it because it’s very fast not that you have to anticipate it to counter it.
The chatlog is rather old from when i went on the SRK IRC and asked for some advice on some vids you posted playing me.
<Shari> Thanks for all the help. One last question: If Honda has lifelead and is in the corner what is the best way to approach him ?
<Shari> Also would it be okay if i posted what you said on the HDR part of the forum to help other Vega Players ?
<s-kill> hey
<s-kill> I would rather say something clear than random irc snippets
<s-kill> lol
<s-kill> anyway, a few things you should never/rarely do (obviously there are exceptions to almost all rules):
<Shari> I was thinking of linking the vid and then your comments on it but if you would rather just write something cohesive sure i appreciate all the help.
<s-kill> if you are both charging d/b across screen, never go off the far wall (the one nearest honda)
<s-kill> it’s a free counter for him
<s-kill> basically honda has no safe way to attack
<s-kill> vega has almost no safe ways to attack
<s-kill> hold on, sorry, too much stuff happening
<Shari> Haha no problem
<s-kill> right so Vega can sort-of go off the wall
<s-kill> he can also actually jump at Honda
<s-kill> you can either jump straight up and down in front of him
<s-kill> with st.forward/st.strong (don’t get too cute with that)
<s-kill> or jump at him with j fierce
<s-kill> but jump so you aren’t landing on top of him
<s-kill> you want the fierce aimed basically to land at his feet
<s-kill> basically it puts you out of the jab HB ownage zone
<s-kill> and the j fierce will trade/beat any other torpedo from there
<s-kill> if he gets hit, just combo into cr strong and run away
<s-kill> Honda has a terrible time trying to catch up with vega
<s-kill> basically it’s big advantage to whoever has the lead
<s-kill> (and of course is solid on their counters)
<s-kill> if you get a lead, you are just giving away an advantage if you attack
<s-kill> regardless of whether you’re vega or honda
<s-kill> well, Honda has plenty of setups that are worth pressing the advantage on
<s-kill> but yeah, if it’s single-hit, cross screen, sit on that lead
<s-kill> esp if you’re vega
<s-kill> since it’s harder for honda to come at you
<s-kill> you can also bait a lot of scrubs into HBing at you from across the screen
<s-kill> then either jump back and counter, or just be close and flipkick on reaction
<s-kill> that sounds hard, but it’s not actually, because you only need to look for one thing (headbutt)
<s-kill> and react just to that
<Shari> Okay and then how do you approach Honda when he has the lead ?
<s-kill> when it’s that narrow, even people with weak reactions like me can counter like a daigo
<s-kill> I usually prefer the jump hassling
<s-kill> it’s usually less risky than off the wall
<s-kill> but basically you’re in a very bad spot
<s-kill> honda vs anyone without a fireball (and a lead) is bad news
<s-kill> jumping usually causes Hondas to try buttflop, which does not work at all
<s-kill> free airthrow if you’re good, free medium attack otherwise
<s-kill> (vega’s airthrow is too hard)
<s-kill> moving around that much also semi sets up other dumb stuff, like a jab roll, etc.
<s-kill> but basically it’s all circus tricks
<Shari> Could you perhaps have a look at this one then [media=youtube]bYTmC-1P_h8[/media] From second round onwards i tried a more turtling approach to it
<s-kill> you can try and jump to the opposite side to void his charge
<s-kill> from the start?
<Shari> Second round of the first match
<s-kill> I’ll talk as I watch
<Shari> okay
<s-kill> you baited him to random HB
<s-kill> lol
<s-kill> good
<s-kill> this is how I know thelo is not a truly experienced honda
<s-kill> you basically never do that in this match except as last resort
<s-kill> anyway, after j fierce counter, you should jump away
<s-kill> you’re next to him as he recovers
<s-kill> dangerous opportunity for honda
<s-kill> you missed a free coutner when he did ANOTHER hb across screen, but no biggie
<Shari> Ye i was actually charged for super there but missed it
<s-kill> the “hands assault” from honda is reasonable play by thelo, but mostly bluff
<s-kill> you can counter in a variety of ways, even cr. strong or slide
<s-kill> tho they’re risky
<s-kill> as in, you need to be anticipating hands, then counter.
<s-kill> if you SEE hands, then think “ahh, hands–I should counter!” then he probably has enough time to stop hands and do something that could counter your attempted counter
<s-kill> so it’s immediately or don’t bother
<s-kill> anyway, hands are a bluff bc you can block that shit all day worst case
<s-kill> it never hits more than 1-2x from distance
<s-kill> if he uses it to set up buttflop, counter buttflop (it’s clean counter for vega)
<s-kill> if HB, same–free counter
<s-kill> if hands bother you, and you’re not feeling your counter, just jump away
<s-kill> Honda has essentially zero counters to Vega jumping away
<Shari> Anything else you can think of ?
s-kill> there’s a lot more little things, but the rest of that match looks standard enough
<s-kill> he desperately tries to create opportunities, gets hit by random walldives
<s-kill> walldive is still overall a plus for vega, but it can be too risky if you already have a lead
<Shari> So overall: Since the match is pretty much halfway decided by whoever gets lifelead first, and Vega has a “safer” way of attacking Honda it should be somewhat in his favor ?
<s-kill> it’s easier for Vega to lose if honda finds an opening
<s-kill> it’s a very even matchup overall
<s-kill> I am fine playing it as either
<s-kill> have no clear pref
<s-kill> maybe a little easier for vega, since he can play a little offense, instead of almost pure counter
<s-kill> also thelo should use fierce hands
<s-kill> much better
<s-kill> cr. forward to hide it’s coming
<s-kill> basically vega does NOT have a safe way to attack honda
<s-kill> he just has some semi-decent parlor tricks that can open doors
<s-kill> where honda has nearly none
<Shari> Ah so it’s not that he has a safe way but that he has a way of attacking at all ?
<s-kill> yeah, kinda
<s-kill> vega has options
<s-kill> none of them are very good, but they are at least non-loser options
<s-kill> honda has basically no non-loser options
<s-kill> but yeah, functionally it’s a pretty even fight
<Shari> Okay thanks for taking the time.
Another thing while watching that old vid i noticed using Buttslam to escape walldives not sure if you still do that but it’s actually punishable by just walking up and pressing :mp: which mean doing it is just free damage for Claw.
Yeah Ganelon basically does that to me 100% of the time when I buttslam escape. Usually I still use buttslam escape against unknown opponents until the Claw proves that he knows how to punish that.
It really does hurt when Claw can punish it though, I have to be much more on point with jump MP walldive counters or accurate blocking. At one point I tried using stand close fierce (the chop) as a counter, but it’s way too unreliable. Pretty often if Claw knocks me down and does meaty walldive, I’ll still do buttslam escape, since at least after that single claw punish hit he can’t immediately threaten more damage.
I would consider using :hp: as a counter if you are in the corner against a walldive where he touches the wall and you lose charge.
He goes into a “teched” animation which leads to most Honda players i have faced giving me a free throw so what i would do as Honda is immediately after i would jump back splash into ochio. This is all theory but seems a superior option to buttslam which can whiff depending on how he does the dive in the corner.
It can be used mid screen as well but for it to work against a good claw you need to screw up their timing.
[media=youtube]TryvhyKMRhA[/media]
Check Milanea in the last round here where he uses the “butt” :lk: jump to screw up Tokido’s timing and positioning to hit the :hp:
Interesting video! That Honda player’s style is basically as different as possible from my own, it gets me thinking about new things. Thanks for the heads-up.
If you react late to a Wall Dive and can’t jump MP before they get to the wall behind you then sometimes using a late jumping up or jumping back down+MK splash will work. It has red hit boxes both above Honda and behind Honda so it will sometimes hit them clean if they are already above you or behind you in the air). It actually works pretty well if your in the corner without a charge and the Vega goes off the wall in your corner right above you. A quick jump straight up, down+MK (which is kinda akward to pull off) will often hit them (especially if they don’t expect it).
The MK splash still loses clean if Vega does an early dive attack from max range air-to-air, and they can throw you out of it if they are in the right position, but it’s still usefull to use every now and then (it’s tough to always be ready to jump back MP every Wall Dive attempt).
I’ll have to watch that video when I get home, I never thought about using a jumping LK to throw them off during the dive attack. I imagine you couldn’t use it very often though, they should be able to throw you out of it if they are expecting it.
It sure would’ve made things easier if Sirlin just made close HP (chop) his only HP move like it was in WW/CE/HF. As it is now, the chop is way too difficult to pull it out when you need it in situations like those. If anything he could’ve put the normal HP leg-grab move on ducking HP (getting rid of the damn useless two-hitter) or down-forward HP or something.
Also, I hate Bison. A lot. That new neutral jump MP just KILLS when the Bison player knows how to use it right. It’s even worse that they can use it twice in one jump session. Get hit by its huge hitbox once and you are -30% juggled and in prime position to get ambiguously crossed up for the win :sad: At first I thought Bison was balanced fine, but the least they could’ve done to balance out the cool shit they gave him was to (if possible) make his jumping LK/MK crossup properties less impossible to block.
I’d give up stored Ochio (since everyone complains about it) for HDR Honda to have at least some of O.Honda’s normals (specifically his standing and crouching Fierces, cr.Strong, and his short and forward kick sweeps). The LK and MK sweeps would be so usefull against fireballers.
Does anybody know about comboing Cr.lk, Cr.Hp, into super in VST? I just did it and I really don’t remember what I exactly did. All I know was that it was a stored super I used in the combo and it didn’t do too much damage, but it was pretty damn flashy.
Also how is standing jabX2 into super executed again? I can only do one jab and I forgot the “fancy” way of doing the second one.
Wow, S-Kill saying Thelo has no experience? :lol: Oh, the irony. This match is quite hard for Vega, you can’t get too creative or anything. SuperNYC and I play this match semi-frequently and we both agree its pretty “gay” (though he more calls me gay but you get the idea :lol:). One thing that I’ve noticed good Honda’s doing is basically beating my dive EVEN on cross-up. Apparently you can change the direction of the charge and perform the move last-second. Uncanny. IMO, that changes the whole dynamic of the match. I think Honda has the advantage here because he can mess Vega up much faster, but Vega can also win this match. You just have to be prepared to adopt a VERY lame strategy.
EDIT: Reno and I did this match the other night after I requested his Honda. Literally every match ended with about 10 seconds left on the clock.
I honestly do not think Honda has any solid advantage over claw. Claw can react to headbutts with back-flip, in VST he knocks down after a hit wall dive, he has better normals, and he has some free jump ins. What does Honda have? Some normals to hit claw out of wall dive. Oh and throw mix ups that the Honda will probably never be able to use if the match is played correctly by the claw.
In the match with my fellow pink Honda, Milanea, and Tokido. I think we can all agree that Tokido made some DEVASTATING mistakes that no claw should ever make vs Honda. Tokido didn’t feel like being a turtle that match and went straight for the gold. Thankfully for Milanea he knew how to punish these silly mistakes which put him into a good position vs anybody. For an example Tokido made a really bad decision at (1:03 - 1:06). This put Milanea in a zone to do some VST Honda magic. Tokido also didn’t really mind to be ochio looped that day too. =P My opinion, 10-0 claw in VST and 9-1 claw HDR. XD
5.5-4.5 + Honda, you slut!
Speaking of which, we should do that matchup next time we’re both on.
While I don’t play Honda, I do the same thing in this match up except with super as Chun. The thing you have to be careful of is if you press the button within the first few frames that he crosses over you, your attack will go the wrong way, even though the inputs have switched to the correct direction. So, if Claw does a tight enough cross up you can’t do this technique. Of course, then he’s probably close enough behind you that you can hit him with your super even if it goes the wrong way.
I played a match on XBL against a Vega the other day that had every round but one end in time overs, with one round ending in a time over draw where neither of us left our corners the whole round. Dumbest match-up in SF2.
Yeah, I’ve been using the anti-crossup super lately against Vega - I recently noticed just how good it is to stop Vega’s anti-jab headbutt walldives. I just wiggle the stick a bit as I’m getting crossed-up, hit a punch after Vega crosses up over my head, and wham! there goes the round. Really useful against those Vega players who know how to make their straight walldives impervious to jab headbutts.
In the Honda mirror, my new favorite opening is to walk half a step back, then stand jab. This beats opening headbutts and opening HHS cleanly, and you’re back-charged for a headbutt if the opponent tries any opening buttslam - really solid stuff. If the opponent Honda does nothing, I either keep on walking backwards (to create distance and allow me to reaction headbutt more easily) or I fierce headbutt a second later (to gain life advantage).
Found out how to do it… yay.
You can also jump back (after jab) and try to hit the other Honda out of his headbutt or whatever he tries. Plus jumping back makes it easier to react to things. <— For me at least XD
I tried jumping back a few times, but it tends to lose cleanly if the opponent Honda waits half a second then fierce headbutts (it beats you while you’re rising) - and there are a LOT of Honda players who love that opening in the mirror. So now I just stick to walking backwards after that stand jab.
True, but it’s always good to mix it up in the mirror. Although its really good to stick with the smartest thing vs let’s say not so good players. Vs good Hondas I have to mix it up. Same goes for other characters.
^ This. I almost always open with walk back standing jab because it’s 100% safe. I also almost never, ever, jump in a Honda mirror unless I’m doing a safe jump on a knocked down Honda to pressure him. The last thing you want in a Honda mirror is to get knocked down, which makes jumping (forward or back) too risky. I see a lot of Hondas use jump back short but I’m pretty good at timing a fierce headbutt to hit them just as they land, from almost full screen. For the small amount of damage a jumping short does it’s not worth the risk of getting knocked down (headbutt damage) and then probably eating HHS chip damage (allowing other Honda to get lead and then just turtle up).
If I get desperate (or bored) I will, though, sometimes do a jumping forward MK (regular MK, not splash) to hit from it’s maximum range (tip of the toe). This will beat Headbutts clean (will lose to properly timed Sumo Smashes, however).
Edit: The anti-cross-up Super/headbutt also works great against Bison players who are foolish enough to try a cross-up punch follow up to a blocked Headstomp.