I do it the same way. I got to the point where I didn’t care if he could store it or not. I was inputting them on demand, because in my style staying mobile was more important.
Reorganized Honda topic!
-First post now has a fairly detailed analysis of Honda’s moveset, both normals and specials.
-Several items moved to the fourth post (wishlist, dirty tricks, throw follow-ups)
Fixed a few things. That chart will tell you who can be crossed up following a hug, and who can be crossed under following a hug. Also the table lists who the jab-strong-fierce combo will hit on.
Cross-up down+MK/HK (Character specific; Guile, need help on who else): http://forums.shoryuken.com/showthread.php?t=168779&p=6196393#post6196393
Walk-under cr. HK (Does work against Chun-Li or Claw, corner only): The walk under part of this trick isn’t corner only. You can cross under at mid-screen and do a crouching short meaty on the other side. See previous post on who the cross under doesn’t work on. And the cross under part should work against everyone.
wat about the hug auto cross on bison and some certain characters i no sometimes on chun it works but has to be timed right hmmmmmm it also works on thawk i forgot havent been playing all diff characters i forget
It has to do with how long the grab goes – sometimes you will cross up, and sometimes you wont. If the Chun player is good at shaking out sometimes it won’t cross up. The benefit here is that neither of you know if it’s going to cross up or not, but the Honda player is still at an advantage because it creates a guessing game for the opponent.
If it doesn’t cross up, cool, just throw again. If it does, combo! Yay!
man shhhhhhhhhhhhh mega man we giving all our secrets away jk man lol hey i no ur the like 1 of the top hondas on hdr but do u like playing honda mirrors. for some reason they r always like a coin toss is that the same for u
Honda mirrors are one of the worst, up there with Guile mirrors. They are so bad that one time UltraDavid (also a great Honda player) and I were matched up in a tournament. And as we were sitting down he said, “How about blind select, no Honda” and I jumped at the opportunity. So we played Dictator (Him) vs. Boxer (Me). Way more fun than the Honda mirror.
If you find that you’re having trouble in the Honda mirror, there are some tips.
If your opponent opens the round with buttslam, jump back FP shuts that shit down. Far standing jab stuffs headbutt. Thelo taught me that neutral jump LK in this match is a pretty good move. Otherwise this match is a down back fest. And that just plain sucks.
1Hitparry plays Honda:
My opponent is awfully close, I better use cr. jab to push him back ? OCHIO!
I want to pressure my opponent so I will walk up then cr. jab ? OCHIO!
Oh no, I’m getting crossed up, I’m going to headbu ? OCHIO!
I suck at Honda. I’m going to switch go Box ? OCHIO! ? I’m not even playing yet!
Tonight is not my night for HDR. I’m going to play Demon’s Souls ? OCHIO! ? That’s not even a Capcom game!
Also, what do you guys think about Ochio wiff short Buttflop Ochio?
I’m pretty sure that cross-up after bear-hug on characters like Chun and Guile are based on where you are on the stage and which direction you are facing, not how long they are in the throw. I can almost always tell if it will cross-up or not based on where I am on the stage and what direction I am facing. That helps me determine if I’m going for safe-jump-bear hug throw loop or cross-up HHS combo, tick Ochio mix-up afterwards.
The reason so many people do cr.jab tick into Ochio is because it’s the easiest (meaty cr.jab gives you lots of time). You can make it safe by negative edging the Ochio. So it depends on how good you are with you’re ticks, if you’re good then do like EA said and mix it up to throw off their timing. My favorite WTF tick into Ochio is cl.forward, the hard part is actually getting the cl.forward to come out, LOL (I think it doesn’t come out at all against some characters).
LOL at 1hitparry (getting Ochio’d in Demos Souls, cracked me up!).
I know side matters sometimes and with some characters (Chun-Li,) but I know that when SweetJohnnyV started really shaking out of the throws early the cross-up was a lot less consistent. I’m pretty sure that it does matter. Though I’m not sure how to empirically test it.
Might want to add this info as well since someone asked another question about it.
http://www.shoryuken.com/showthread.php?t=168779&p=7392039&viewfull=1#post7392039
Edited again! Edited in Megaman’s post on how to combo Hundred Hands into the special move analysis, and some insight from Thelo on how to stuff Boxer’s rush punches.
Alright, time to study my personal worst matchup: Honda vs Balrog. I keep getting my face melted in that matchup and I don’t know why. Here’s the typical scenario: Balrog stays at some distance, throwing lots of cr. :mp: to stuff my headbutts and HHS, headbutting jump-ins on reaction, and doing a low rush every now and then, especially if I start walking forward to sweep him or something. My usual reaction tricks go out the window vs that burly boxer.
Here are a few videos of me getting creamed by that strategy:
[media=youtube]reZ9Q6Sl5To[/media]
[media=youtube]Lx4W7wWNb-U[/media]
[media=youtube]P36FZPwzRdQ[/media]
Does anyone have any comments or suggestions? Even vs Ken or Guile I know exactly what to do, but vs Balrog, I’m at sort of a loss. Cr. :hp: to stop rushes only goes so far. Once I do get a knockdown, I can go ahead with a relatively safe tick throw of some sort, but getting a knockdown at all feels so hard.
Step 1: Start a thread on SRK: http://www.shoryuken.com/showthread.php?t=226452
Step 2: ???
Step 3: Profit…er win.
I don’t play Honda, so this is probably the worst idea in the world: If he’s charging when you walk forward, do the torpedo command as slowly as possible. You can theoretically walk forward for 7 frames before you loose the charge.
Thelo, just a couple of hypothetical questions from someone who plays neither of these characters, and is not particalurly good with the character he does play with…
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Why do you always go for the ochio after a safe jump? If you get him with one of Honda’s grabs, don’t you get repeated safe jumps into ticks until he’s dead? (I think I’ve seen Ultradavid do this in a video.) Maybe you could mix it up with Ochio.
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You kept eating BIG damage in those videos against Geneijin. (I know how that feels, believe me.) If he has super, never ever ever throw out a random Super, it’s 100% punishable 100% if the time.)
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Don’t jump at him/sumo splash when he’s just sitting there spamming c.mp. He WILL headbutt you 100% of the time.
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It seems like you did better when you stayed outside of his range and made him come to you. You’re right that he was stuffing your hands with c.mp, but you were stuffing his rushes with your c.mp and hands. This seems like a matter of finding the right range/spacing.
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There were a few times where you landed a crossup, but then got thrown by him immediately after, which makes it seem like you were going for a throw. Why not combo in that situation? If you do j.RH c.lk x 2 into hands, then the round is over. (I know this combo is not easy by any stretch, but it seems like you need to maximize those big damage opportunities.) If you always go for a throw, then the Boxer player doesn’t even have to guess at what you’re going to do, and can land is own throw a lot more.
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If he jumps at you, shouldn’t you be doing j.Torpedo to beat it? Is j.Torpedo from close range useless in this match? (I honestly don’t know, sorry if this is a bad suggestion.)
So anyway if I’m way off base with these suggestions just ignore me. Its early on a Sunday and I just got up.
Thanks for taking the time to do this Osprey. Let’s go over those.
#1 reason is that I can negative edge the ochio to be immune to his reversal headbutt. It’s not a very safe jump if I’m not actually safe from a reversal ^^;
But maybe sometimes it would be worth it to try to go for the hug anyway, hmm.
Damnit, I so know this, and yet I lose my cool anyway. Totally agreed. I keep telling myself, must not random super, must not random super, must not random super! Then I random super anyway. Ugh. Gotta hold down-back harder.
Right. I think what happened there was that with all the motion of his cr. MPs, I try to react to a low rush with buttslam, but get caught up with a false positive and buttslam at the wrong time. Not sure how to justify the jump-in, heh.
You know what? You’re probably right. It’s just really unnerving to let him build a final TAP by just sitting there and being 100% defensive. Also I guess I still need a way to get in if I get life disadvantage…
Hmm, to be honest, that one is mostly because my success rate with cr. LK -> HHS is pretty damn low. Of course, that’s in turn because I never really go for it, so I never practice it. The other reason is that he can just block the whole crossup -> cr LK -> HHS deal, whereas he can’t block an ochio. But yeah, I should at least mix up the two a bit to keep him honest.
Yeah that one is totally a reaction failure on my part. If he ever jumps at me while I’m charged and I didn’t jab headbutt it, I was just too slow.
Thanks for the insight!
Interesting. I consider that one of my more favorable matches. Basically for me it all comes down to knocking Rog down. After that you can ride pure shenanigans all the way home. Typical scenario for me:
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Start round by usually doing nothing but hold down back with an ochio charge in case the Rog player gets sneaky and tries to go for a rush upper into throw. Use crouching LP randomly to stuff rushes. Watch out for TAP.
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Wait for opportunity to ether knock the Rog player down or get him to block a Sumo Splash. I like bating this by just throwing out random crouching LPs until they rush into them. Usually they will go for random headbutt which is pretty easy to punish. If you knock down, go for crossup MK into crouching LK into ether ochio, HP/HK throw, or MK sumo smash (which will cross up). If they block your sumo smash, go for a HK grab (outside of Rog’s throw range). If you are not near the corner, you can follow up a HP or HK grab with a jumping LK into ochio for free (counts as a safe jump). This can be more difficult if the Rog player has really good reflexes like GeneiJin and Hygeine, but you should get a few chances to set it up. It works so good I feel guilty. I need to make some videos of me doing this.
Notes: Crossup MK->crouching LK->MK Sumo Smash can be countered by jumpback MP from Rog, but if he starts to do that, you get a free Ochio next time (since you can’t jump out of a command grab).
Also, never walk forward trying to sweep Rog, ever. Always try to advance with HHS. Even if you get tagged with his crouching MP, you need to close the gap.
Never use a sumo smash if you don’t think it will connect. Try not to use it if the Rog player is doing nothing but crouching MP (since they are charging down-back). That’s usually free damage for a Rog that’s on the ball.
Try to limit random headbutts unless its for antiair. Pretty much never use super unless chip will kill him or as an antiair.
I noticed you like using crouching HP for stuffing Rog rushes. This is actually dangerous because of how long the move lasts. It makes you ripe for a jumpin or super counter.
Oh, I stole all that from Megaman doing stuff like this to my Rog, but I refined the strategy :lol:
I’m no honda expert, certainly not on your level, so please don’t take this as gospel and feel free to pick holes in anything i post here, but i just wanted to offer another, (probably slightly scrubbier) point of view on this one. Aside from what’s already been posted:
I find that CR.LK xx Fierce torpedo is great against boxer. Sticking out lots of crouching LK pokes to stuff rushes and then looking for a cancel into the fierce headbutt when you hit with one works well for getting knockdowns, and then gaining some ground with a jump in to threaten him on wakeup. It will make him more afraid to rush since if you pull it off you can jump forward while he’s floored and threaten stuff like meaty HHS, crossup splash, or just do nothing and bait and punish a wakeup headbutt. It puts you into the range where you at least have several options for his wakeup and he has to think/guess carefully about what you’re likely to do. It’s “shenanigans country” :wgrin:
Also, i personally would rely less on safe jump ochios than you seemed to do in your videos, just because of the bounce back that leaves you all the way back from him in HDR. Honda’s normal grabs into safe jump shenanigans are great in this matchup, even for making rog guess what you’re gonna do, and are much better for keeping you in that scary “what the f*ck is he gonna do” range where you have lots of wakeup mixup and crossup or baiting options. Make him take risks, rather than letting him just sit back and wait for you to come to him.
I personally would be riskier and would chip more than you seemed to be doing with HHS, and i probably use too much meaty HHS on wakeup too, as long as the opponent has no super meter, but that’s just my cheap ass honda. There’s probably lots of reasons not to do it, but it’s a conscious tactic on my part both to keep boxer on the defensive, and also to get lots of cheap chip damage and get him low on health before his super comes into play. I know you run the risk of being countered if you let the HHS run on too long, or being hit with a wakeup headbutt if you’re too predictable, but i think if you weigh the risk up against all the extra cheesy chip damage you can get in a round it can really add up to be worth it (depending on the read the opposition has on your game of course). Forcing him to block one fierce HHS can take off as much health as a fierce hit each time if you manage to get away with it, so i’m happy to play the game of attrition warfare on that one.
Also, when you’re at full screen distance from him and he’s just sitting back spamming pokes, cancelling a whiffed cr.LK into an MP HHS and then stopping them again straight away is a good trick to gain some ground quickly too, it’s like an instant startup HHS, that stops very quickly. If you practice it you can learn to do it a couple of times in a row and usually advance closer or push boxer back into a corner without risking a jump in (which he’ll just headbutt) or running into a cr.MP poke from him, and without losing any of your charges. In your videos you seemed to be operating at just the wrong spacing to close distance a lot of the time, where you were outside of attacking range, but a jump forward would open you up to his anti air game. I think using HHS or any other trick (possibly forward floating fierce) to advance, even slightly, would help you to get back into that sweet spot where you could actually worry him, instead of him having lots of options for whatever you do next.
All of this is assuming, of course that his super meter hasn’t come into play yet. That move scares the shit out of me in this match. I like to attack as much as i can early on, and will take risks to make him defend lots before he has meter, but once his meter comes into the game it’s hold down back time all day, keep a health lead if i have it, and try to get him to waste the super. His super is scary for countering almost everything you can do, as you know, so just let him come to you if you can afford to, and watch out for all the usual whiff headbutt >> Super BS. Aside from when he has super though, the last thing i am usually doing is turtling and being patient with him, i attack the shit out of him with everything but the kitchen sink. I just think boxer’s offence is way too scary to let him get it going, and attack is the best form of defence here.
I find that crossup HK splash from a reasonably close distance (within sweep distance or so) works well for me for knockdowns too, but that might be a bad tactic on my part, and i’m just not running into a lot of good rogs online who are hurting me for it. If it’s spaced right and it’s early enough to be coming down as they’re waking up, i’ll usually get the hit, even if they try to reversal headbutt out of it.
Lastly, as you said. Never, never, never, NEVER throw out a random super, It’s a free counter all day long. I find a good tactic everytime i make i silly rookie mistake like that that i’m trying to train myself out of is to give myself a good slap in the face right there in the middle of the match. If you’re willing to take a few hundred slaps in the face, you can condition yourself to not do just about anything given enough time :wgrin:
Like i said, this stuff is not definitive by any means, it’s just my own take on it. I’m sure you know the matchup better than me, but i hope there’s some stuff there that’s useful to add to your game. I generally find this to be one of my better matchups with honda, but then i’m impatient, i take risks, and i like to attack LOTS which is not your typical sumo player…
Honda v. Balrog is almost as boring as Honda v. Honda, total turtle fest. I hate it, LOL. My whole strategy is to try to get one Fierce grab in so I can set up the throw loop, if that doesn’t kill him it at least should give me the lead so then HE has to come to ME. I understand your want to negative edge an Ochio after a safe jump but the potential of the throw loop against a character that is so hard to get damage against is worth the risk, IMO. So if I get a knockdown I almost always go some kind of grab set up.
Most of the time when I lose to 'Rog it’s because I get bored to death watching him squat like he’s got the runs all round, so I do something stupid out of boredom. The problem is he can easily counter HHS, so Honda has no real way to pressure him into attacking. You can Fierce headbutt, but he can block and follow with Low Dashing punch, st.Fierce, which just resets the situation. You can try to walk forward and cr.Roundhouse sweep to knock him down but it’s risky. Best bet is to wait for him to throw out a dashing punch and try to Headbutt or Sumo Smash on reaction (which is hard as Hell). Boring, boring, boring, LOL.
Boring as a Honda mirror? I don’t think that’s possible. But you’re right that in the hardest echelon of play it can get a little tedious (who fucks up first). Still, I LOVE essentially tick throwing/shenanaging Rog to death.