panic ex sesismos give their greetings too
I think there needs to be a definition between difficult match ups and clear disadvantages. You can have an easy 5-5 and a hard 5-5.
I mean Ibuki, annoying, hard, but in her favour? I just can’t see it. Same with Dhalsim, It’s a difficult match but again I can’t see where Sim clearly has an advantage. I’d probably throw Seth in there as well.
I don’t think the fight is in Sagat’s favor at all. You take the premise that gouken does not want to be full screen as well. at fullscreen gouken can go even with sagat’s fireball. that is a fact. Gouken can literally turtle sagat. then once gouken has meter, the full screen game completely changes into his favor. ex flip on reaction to fireball is pretty free.
now on wake up, Gouken has several mixups that can stuff tiger uppercuts or is very safe. it is not obviously to the extent ofthe akuma mix up, but it is still very effective.
at mid screen, it becomes a bit closer. like you said, you can kara uppercut through fireballs and he can palm through. i just reject the notion that being full screen is undesirable for gouken. palms you can punish with reversal TU or maybe TK or throw. but a whiff TU leads to way more damage. the risk reward isn’t there. you say TU can be fadc’d so can palm. Palm has typically less risk in my opinion.
Gouken as a turtle has many options. his anti airs will typicall beat all of sagat’s jump in’s. he has an ex tatsu, and even an AA ultra. To me its like fighing a worse guile fireball wise, but with many other options around fireballs. Gouken has no need to approach sagat. at least if he’s playing right, i think its either way its a game of patience, and the better player will come out.
In either case i labeled the match up 4.5-5.5 it is in my opinion a close match but just giving gouken a slight advantage.
as far as the other characters (you didn’t mention specifics) but i think if i had the time, i would offer a more elaborate explanation of why i think sagat has disadvantages in those matchups.
I think i discern that with 0.5 markers. 5.5-4.5 is a pretty close match up with ibuki having some advantages.
i don’t understand why are we even discerning between a “difficult” and disadvantageous match?
I think Seth is and will be one of Sagat’s bad match ups.
Watch the recent sets between Mago and Arubi and you’ll see why the guy match up is difficult.
watch Sanford kelly vs poongko, or the otehr god’s garden matches with poongko.
[media=youtube]Ecw5aJG45Fs[/media]
Ugh my head hurts. The things you are saying about Gouken just aren’t true and…ugh fuck it.
I’m done for awhile.
[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hv6iUdgRWgA
I think almost all my points are illustrated in the match.](‘http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hv6iUdgRWgA’)I wish you would elaborate your specific criticisms instead of being so condescending >.>. I am by no means perfect, and i’m very open to being corrected.
This is something that really bugs me and will never understand, and is in no way directed at you. I’ve been meaning to mention this on the front page. But I feel SRK especially has been infected by these statistics to a point where we are in fact kind of brain washed. People come up with these .5 numbers to define that the match may be difficult in some way but ignore the WHY , and that why instead of becoming a strategy, it becomes a number form lost in a chart. Or a distraction.
Ibuki I think is the perfect example. Why? why 0.5?, is it a single scenario, a specific special or normal? are people actually asking these questions, thinking about it and finding a way around? That imaginary.5 can be avoided by simply staying on your feet. I used to think this was the worst advice but is it really? What if my game plan actually takes this into account, everything I do in that match becomes focused on NOT letting that happen. I swing it back to my “slight advantage” there is no imaginary half point. It becomes a game of tactics and strategy. It becomes reaction and reading, you play SF how it’s meant to be played.
To cement this point, now take Akuma in this example. Who by all accounts is accepted as a 6-4. We are now saying that Akuma is only .5 harder than ibuki? Think about that. A character that seems built to destroy Sagat is only “slightly” harder than ibuki??? It doesn’t make a lick of sense. Akuma is a legitimet bad match. I can’t now concentrate on a few minor details, I have to be on point on multiple scenario’s. Is he in St.HK range? Can I fireball? Will he jump? Can I stuff his counter poke with St.mk? Which set up is he going for? (this differs greatly from ibuki).
I think when compiling lists, the game isn’t as complicated as these mathematicians will have you believe. If we work on these slight disadvantages, ask the why’s? Correct them, plan them, these ideas’s will vanish and people will level up greatly.
A bad match will be obvious even to the most basic player. A hard match may not.
Ibuki and Akuma are just one specific pair that are used to make my point, but this is happening in every character sub forum, for every type of player.
Sagat without meter 5-5 matchup.
Sagat with AS 6-4 matchup.
Bonchan was pretty much clueless about the matchup. He had no idea com to deal with and you can see he not even once in that set did he stock one scar up.
And ibuki is a character with vortex. That means you need to guess to defend once you get knockdowned. And guessing twice wrong means a stun. And that means your under 70% hp by this time.
however she is free on knockdown aswell. So basicly, first to get knocked down gets a long mountain to climb.
I feel like this is all just semantics. Whether or not you use the quote unquote .5 is irrelevant. hell if you want you can put a 5+/5 to indicate someone how has certain advantageous it doesn’t really matter, as long as people understand what you mean.
I don’t know about you, but i think about all those scenarios regardless of what character i am playing against. so that’s lost on me. is she in slide range? is she going to jump? what side of vortex is she going to be on? can i uppercut that jump in? now, do you have the tools to deal with them and how reliable they are will pretty much determine the match up.
so call it whatever you want “hard match” “5.5” whatever. but when someone is describing a “bad match up” there is a huge gradient that needs to be addressed. it is simply something to describe the difficulty of a match up. Thanks for clarifying your point though! =]
There’s no guessing at all. For Ibuki’s vortex, once you’ve learned the set up’s, she’s lost. Ask ibuki players and I’m sure they’d agree, if they rely on the vortex they will lose. Hence why ibuki never wins anything. That’s IF you even let her in. Granted some are more difficult to spot than others.
Anyway, my point wasn’t so much about the match up, more about how I think the numbering/tier system is wrong.
Yeah , but what I’m trying to say is that these .5’s and charts seem to indicate that over a period of time Ibuki (or Guy, or Dhalsim, or whoever) would come out on top. I don’t believe that’s true. I think the whole system of classing characters is wrong. These “slight” advantages/disadvantages are too fine to ever slap a number on.
What would be interesting, would be to gather 3-4 top players from each character forum and have them play 20-30 matches at a time over a period of a few months and even then, the information would probably still be debatable.
Ok fine I’ll put this Gouken vs Sagat thing to rest. I tested shit in practice mode. Gouken CANNOT ex flip or palm through a shot on pure reaction. Reaction as in a char does an action and even if you aren’t looking for it you can respond and hurt the other character for it. Sagat recovers too fast. Even when I buffered it, I wasn’t able to respond in time to catch Sagat with EX demon flip grab. Same for palm. What you can do is predict Sagat or guess.
Bonchan is not a good example at all. He already lost when he picked Tiger Destruction over Tiger Cannon showing he had no idea wtf to do vs Gouken. And as was already stated he didn’t use AS even once.
BUT, Sagat can still kara TU through hadoukens at around mid screen, you just gotta have really good reactions. You will trade with the hadouken however if it was a lp one or just bust his face up if he did an angled hadouken. EX goes through completely but you will lose some hits and damage.
Footsies wise all Gouken really has is sweep and st.mk can beat it. He has some other buttons, but in most footsie encounters his buttons will just lose to st.mk. His own st.mk is good for stuffing sum of Gat’s buttons but it requires good spacing and most Gouken’s aren’t going to use it because it’s angled high.
Gouken having good AA’s is moot. Sagat doesn’t ever need to jump at this char. He really shouldn’t ever be jumping ever except for safe jump set-ups vs any char, but that’s another point entirely.
I feel like the match-up changes as both chars gain or lose meter. If Sagat has AS, Tiger Cannon and at least 2 bars or more stocked I think Gouken is basically fucked. That’s pretty much a 7-3 situation. If neither char has meter it’s closer to even, but still not 5/5 just because Gouken still has to guess. Overall I give it 6/4 just because Gouken’s gameplan doesn’t make Sagat sweat and Gouken is forced to use meter and take risks. For Gouken to win he must take guesses or make good reads. He has no solid gameplan in this match.
And I did not mean to sound condescending it just really threw me to see us debating a match that even the Gouken forums clearly feel is in Sagat’s favor. And to use Bonchan as an example vexed me even further. It’s not about how one pro player does vs another. It’s about how the tools of the chars interact.
Does Guy beat Sagat? I could see that.
From what I’ve seen, seems like Adon beats him pretty soundly too. Seems like Zhi from Singapore agrees there.
Adon, yeah I think so.
Guy I think is even now but when patch drops I think it will favor him slightly.
Thanks for the clarification. I mean i have certain gouken friends that would say they don’t have much trouble with sagat. But in any case thanks for the elaboration.
as far as GUY goes, i don’t think the match up will change at all unless ultra 1 new range properties will go through fireballs. at least hopefully not. =[
as far as using bonchan v infiltration, i just needed examples of what i was talking about so it didn’t seem like i was just saying nonsense.
I have had mains of every char ever say that to me. Rose players, Elf players, Adon players, etc. Then they fight me and completely re-think the match.
Do you know why? Because these people are just so used to fighting a certain char a certain way and the players they beat have no cognitive ability to think outside the box. I bet money your Gouken friends have no idea AS armor breaks for example.
First of all, mad respect on the Pierre Miguire drinking game!
And Yes Adon beats Sagat due to Adon’s U1, I think if Adon picks U2 it’s even or in Sagat’s favour. Risk vs Reward is just not in Sagat’s favour in that match up, and U1 Can punish almost FULL screen shots on reaction(not prediction).
Guy is likely 50/50 or slightly in Guys favour.
FINALLY somebody who knows where this is from. A million likes to you.
Haha, HUGE hockey fan, can’t miss that one! “Big Body Presence”
Yeah but at the same time, if you pick Ultra 2, you can reaction Ultra any wall kicks, even the shorts. I’ve seen Adon’s use U2 for the FADC opportunity’s. I find Adon a little like Bison. There’s no way he’d get away with half his shit offline. Especially with regards to throws.
Still a difficult match, but I wouldn’t put it as a 6-4 or anything, maybe that’s just me though. Maybe I’ve never played a real good one.
The thing about U2 punishing wall-dives is that most good Adon’s don’t Wall dive much, I still highly recommend using U1 in that match up.
Good Adon’s will TK Jaguar kick in hopes to travel over tiger shots safer and trying to COMBO(yes it combos 
) into sweep(cry) or cr.mp into jaguar kick. I always said Sagat tends to lose to character’s he can’t zone well against, and I believe Adon is one of those characters with U1, it’s far too easy to react to tiger shots with it when Adon’s U1 is like Abel’s U1 speed. It’s also the high damage ultra…
Gamerbee believes the match-up is in Adon’s favour as well and there is a video online of him really laying it Mago’s sagat in a very long set.
Before U1, it’s anyone’s game and likely a slight advantage to Sagat.
It’s important to note Adon’s DP is 4 frames(quicker than yours) so be careful with your safe jump attempts(work on them).
Adon has a NASTY NASTY FUCKING NASTY frame trap where he does low shorts or low jabs into STANDING HP, IMO it’s one of the best frametraps in the game due to Adon’s speed and high damage output.
Cheers for the info. I feel Sagat still has better normals than Adon, Tiger shots are not really 100% neccesary , with neutral jump mk and TK I think Sagat can do well.
I totally get what your saying though, his movements can be quite hard to read and his damage is pretty good. Not even sure what Adon’s getting in the new one, I’ve not looked.