Disgusting ignorant "analysis" of the FGC's "highly problematic player culture" from MIT

[TaurusDrey]

She did not for whatever reason and did it during the voting off session, basically in public.

I think it’s interesting that you imply there was nothing wrong with Aris behaving like he did publicly, but that there was something wrong with Miranda addressing that behavior publicly.

Well, if in the FGC a minority being “highly problematic player culture” means the entire community is problematic, then a few people being murderers and rapists at MIT means everyone at MIT is a murderer and a rapist, which is far worse than name-calling on stream…

That’s really not what that list indicates, though, since it measures crime on the campus, not crime by students of the institution. You’d think someone so judgmental of others’ research would be better at interpreting data.

Women deserve equal rights, silly, and we’re only equal if women have the right to strike another human being whenever they feel offended.

I think the word you’re looking for is “threatened,” not “offended.” Nobody said anything about what a woman should have the right to do if a man says she is a “slut” or a “stupid bitch.” Somebody said that a woman should have the right to use force against a large, imposing man who continually makes unwanted sexual advances towards her and then invades her personal space multiple times despite her objections. I think what most people in here aren’t really getting is that it’s not about somebody getting offended or having their feelings hurt, it’s about people feeling unsafe. If somebody walked up to a guy at an arcade, stood behind him, and told him over and over that they’d stab him in the parking lot if he won, I doubt people would be in here saying he needed to just grow a thicker skin because nobody has the right not to be offended. If a guy all-but-threatens — or even just straight-up threatens — to rape a girl, though, people say she needs to grow a thicker skin because nobody has the right not to be offended. Basically, if somebody threatens a dude, the person who threatens him is a psycho giving the scene a bad rep; if a man threatens a woman, he’s apparently just exercising his right of free speech and she’s being a bitch if she says anything about it. That’s not equal treatment. Even just the second half of that isn’t equal treatment; a guy can say literally whatever he wants to a girl and it’s cool, but if she calls him a misogynist, that’s out of line? That seems equal to you?

EDIT: On a lighter note, I think it’s pretty hilarious that the guy named “crotchpuncha” is taking a stern stance against crotch-punching.

[Mancub]

Wait, where are you getting these rape threats from? Because there was certainly nothing REMOTELY close to Aris threatening to rape Miranda in these videos. You’re also comparing the act of threatening somebody with death by stabbing to telling somebody their thighs are hot or they smell good, which further cements this ridiculous mindset that anything directed at a woman is 10x worse than if it is done towards a man. Where is the outcry for how Aris was talking to Ricky, sexualizing him and being crass? Oh, wait, despite getting the same treatment as Miranda, he reacted positively, had a laugh and moved on with life. If he had objected to the jokes, he would have said so like an intelligent person would.

You’re also using weird ass examples that nobody else said: if somebody threatens another person, then the person making the threats is at fault. Additionally, if somebody is abusing somebody and the other person tells them to stop (something you learn to do as early as 1st grade) yet they persist, then the person that is hurling abuse is at fault. The DISCREPANCY here is that Miranda only used body language to convey it, she didn’t do the mature thing and tell him, well worded or not, that he needs to stop that shit until afterwards.

[TaurusDrey]

I mean, there is Aris repeatedly making obviously unwanted sexual advances and repeatedly invading her space, but I’m guessing you don’t see how someone could find that threatening? To elaborate, even if his behavior started off purely in the realm of crass jokes, the fact that he didn’t stop when Miranda asked him to (which, incidentally, she did more than once) took it over the line from crass to menacing. The entire point of the comparison is that, regardless of the speaker’s intent (maybe the guy threatening to stab a dude just has a “very dry wit” that “a lot of people tend not to pick up on,” too), being threatened is fundamentally different than being offended, and part of the problem is not recognizing that certain behavior isn’t offensive, it’s threatening, whether or not it’s intended to be. It’s telling that you have more sympathy for a hypothetical man made to feel hypothetically unsafe than an actual woman made to feel actually unsafe. That is not treating everyone the same.

[Mancub]

I mean, there is Aris repeatedly making obviously unwanted sexual advances and repeatedly invading her space, but I’m guessing you don’t see how someone could find that threatening? To elaborate, even if his behavior started off purely in the realm of crass jokes, the fact that he didn’t stop when Miranda asked him to (which, incidentally, she did more than once) took it over the line from crass to menacing. The entire point of the comparison is that, regardless of the speaker’s intent (maybe the guy threatening to stab a dude just has a “very dry wit” that “a lot of people tend not to pick up on,” too), being threatened is fundamentally different than being offended, and part of the problem is not recognizing that certain behavior isn’t offensive, it’s threatening, whether or not it’s intended to be. It’s telling that you have more sympathy for a hypothetical man made to feel hypothetically unsafe than an actual woman made to feel actually unsafe. That is not treating everyone the same.

What the hell are you talking about? What hypothetical man feeling hypothetically unsafe? You used an example of threatening to stab somebody, I said that being threatened with stabbing was worse than what Aris was doing. Aris wasn’t saying ‘I’m going to take you out back and rape you’ or ‘I’m gonna fuck you, slut’. He made jokes, some of which were in bad taste, and she laughed along with a lot of them, blurring the lines of what was and wasn’t acceptable. A well reasoned adult would say ''Look, Aris, this is offending me and making me uncomfortable. I’m all for making jokes, but you need to stop making comments about my thighs and getting in a personal territory that is too uncomfortable for me to handle."

She didn’t bridge that form of communication and it ultimately kept the situation going longer than it needed. Once again, since you missed the point the first time, I’ll say it again:

'‘I’m going to fucking stab you if you win this game."
is NOT comparable to
’'Look at those thighs, oh my gooood."

Much in the same way that:
’‘I’m going to kick your ass next round!"
isn’t the same as
’'I’m going to brutally rape you to death after this match is over."

Dry wit is making slightly offensive quips, or things that have really obvious punchlines/delivery. Dry wit isn’t threatening somebody with rape or murder.

[Shishioh]

White knighting on SRK? What a surprise…

[Cheesecake_Makoto]

That comment was kind of suspect. “Only poor black people play fighting games” What the fuck was that?

He clearly has never met this man:

[TaurusDrey]

What the hell are you talking about? What hypothetical man feeling hypothetically unsafe? You used an example of threatening to stab somebody, I said that being threatened with stabbing was worse than what Aris was doing. Aris wasn’t saying ‘I’m going to take you out back and rape you’ or ‘I’m gonna fuck you, slut’. He made jokes, some of which were in bad taste, and she laughed along with a lot of them, blurring the lines of what was and wasn’t acceptable. A well reasoned adult would say ''Look, Aris, this is offending me and making me uncomfortable. I’m all for making jokes, but you need to stop making comments about my thighs and getting in a personal territory that is too uncomfortable for me to handle."

Again, the whole point is that what Aris said didn’t hurt her feelings or offend her, it made her feel unsafe. It would have made a lot of people feel unsafe. The same way threatening to stab someone wouldn’t hurt their feelings or offend them, it would make them feel unsafe. That is the origin of the comparison; the only difference is that the latter is more direct. Even if they were intended to be jokes, Aris’s comments were threatening; you don’t have to use the words “rape” or “fuck” for it to come across as a threat when you, to take one example, demand that a girl take off her shirt even after she has already “no.” Speaking of which, Miranda did ask him to stop several times, and Aris responded by escalating; at the very least, she said “no” or “please stop” several times and he not only didn’t stop, generally, but continued the exact, specific thing she had asked him to stop. There is really nothing unreasonable about feeling threatened by the way Aris behaved.

Also, just for the record, that’s not what dry wit means. At all. A “dry wit” entails delivering jokes in a deadpan tone. You can look it up.

[Mancub]

What the hell are you talking about? What hypothetical man feeling hypothetically unsafe? You used an example of threatening to stab somebody, I said that being threatened with stabbing was worse than what Aris was doing. Aris wasn’t saying ‘I’m going to take you out back and rape you’ or ‘I’m gonna fuck you, slut’. He made jokes, some of which were in bad taste, and she laughed along with a lot of them, blurring the lines of what was and wasn’t acceptable. A well reasoned adult would say ''Look, Aris, this is offending me and making me uncomfortable. I’m all for making jokes, but you need to stop making comments about my thighs and getting in a personal territory that is too uncomfortable for me to handle."

Again, the whole point is that what Aris said didn’t hurt her feelings or offend her, it made her feel unsafe. It would have made a lot of people feel unsafe. The same way threatening to stab someone wouldn’t hurt their feelings or offend them, it would make them feel unsafe. That is the origin of the comparison; the only difference is that the latter is more direct. Even if they were intended to be jokes, Aris’s comments were threatening; you don’t have to use the words “rape” or “fuck” for it to come across as a threat when you, to take one example, demand that a girl take off her shirt even after she has already “no.” Speaking of which, Miranda did ask him to stop several times, and Aris responded by escalating; at the very least, she said “no” or “please stop” several times and he not only didn’t stop, generally, but continued the exact, specific thing she had asked him to stop. There is really nothing unreasonable about feeling threatened by the way Aris behaved.

Also, just for the record, that’s not what dry wit means. At all. A “dry wit” entails delivering jokes in a deadpan tone. You can look it up.

DEMAND that a girl take off her shirt even after she said no? Do you mean:

'‘Loser takes off their shirt!"
Miranda laughs.
’'You lost, take off your shirt!"
She laughs again.

Subject is dropped.

Maybe you could provide timestamps for when he DEMANDS, in a threatening way, that she should take her shirt off? Or hell, any INSTANCE where he threatened her with violence or implied that if she didn’t do something, he would harm her in any way? The stupidest shit was the whole smelling thing, where she seemed very uncomfortable at the end. But prior to him doing it, she was laughing and going ‘Okay, I’ll try harder!’

I had to actually rewatch the videos to get the phrasing and shit in check, and nearly EVERY JOKE he made towards her was responded to with genuine laughter, with the least amount of uncomfortableness possible. I actually remembered what he had done as worse, but looking at it now it was nowhere near as bad as it was presented initially.

[tataki]

I’d like to imagine a hypothetical scenario where Renic is the one who gets offended by Aris’ usual jokes, starts crying in front of the camera and quits the show. Will the internet be reacting the same, including most of the comments here? Will we be getting Kotaku articles about a straight white male who hurt the feelings of another straight white male with his dirty jokes? My guess is no, because all those people in the back of their brains tend to view the world in the same sexist manner they think they go against, and see women as weaker in need of protection. As long as you don’t treat a woman in this scenario in the same exact manner you’d be treating a man, you are a hypocrite even if it makes you feel good to convince yourself otherwise.

[pherai]

Can we at least all agree that Cross Assault was a colossally stupid idea in the first place?

[stickystaines]

I’d like to imagine a hypothetical scenario where Renic is the one who gets offended by Aris’ usual jokes, starts crying in front of the camera and quits the show. Will the internet be reacting the same, including most of the comments here? Will we be getting Kotaku articles about a straight white male who hurt the feelings of another straight white male with his dirty jokes? My guess is no, because all those people in the back of their brains tend to view the world in the same sexist manner they think they go against, and see women as weaker creatures who need your protection. As long as you don’t treat a woman in this scenario in the same exact manner you’d be treating a man, you are a hypocrite even if it makes you feel good to convince yourself otherwise.

Im sure renic cries every night into his pillow having to live with Juicebox

[CaptainGinyu]

I’d like to imagine a hypothetical scenario where Renic is the one who gets offended by Aris’ usual jokes, starts crying in front of the camera and quits the show. Will the internet be reacting the same, including most of the comments here? Will we be getting Kotaku articles about a straight white male who hurt the feelings of another straight white male with his dirty jokes? My guess is no, because all those people in the back of their brains tend to view the world in the same sexist manner they think they go against, and see women as weaker creatures who need your protection. As long as you don’t treat a woman in this scenario in the same exact manner you’d be treating a man, you are a hypocrite even if it makes you feel good to convince yourself otherwise.

The entire Hypocrite argument is a logical fallacy. However, it is true that if Renic were to be the person in the hot seat, the blow would probably be substantial and he would be told to “Man up” which only speaks to the large amount of sexism and oppression geared towards masculinity in our society.

However, Kotaku just put an article up about Divekick and how Marn was being bullied through his representation in the game. I’m sure if Aris made Renic cry, there would be articles on it because it is a gameshow about videogames being sponsored by a large and popular videogame company, it would have been news. There was also an article on trash talk during a Call of Duty tournament in the UK, all (presumably) straight, White males who were trying to discredit each other’s masculinity by comparing them to something deemed culturally less masculine (in this case, they were calling each other fags). Unacceptable behavior is unacceptable behavior, regardless of race, class, gender, sexual identity, socio-economic status or anything.

I would be acting the same if Renic was the person in the hot seat mostly because man or woman, you don’t say you’re going to smell someone and then mock them on stream.

[tataki]

The entire Hypocrite argument is a logical fallacy. However, it is true that if Renic were to be the person in the hot seat, the blow would probably be substantial and he would be told to “Man up” which only speaks to the large amount of sexism and oppression geared towards masculinity in our society.

“Man up” or “speak up” is actually the logical response considering the situation, and that’s the answer that should be given to anyone regardless of gender and not because of it. If words are too much for you to handle, you really don’t belong in a developed cultured society, where speech that you don’t like isn’t a crime.

However, Kotaku just put an article up about Divekick and how Marn was being bullied through his representation in the game.

Someone making a cartoon character based on you (which doesn’t even include your real name and other personal details) isn’t “bullying”. Are politicians “bullied” by every political cartoon in the paper?

The problem with all this bullshit hyperbole sensationalist wording is that it degrades the words that describe actual crimes, and with that, they degrade the severeness of the actual crimes and shit on the victims on those crimes. If you start calling everyone who doesn’t agree with you a Nazi (a lot of people do that) then the word loses its powerful meaning over time.

Not much different from this:

There was also an article on trash talk during a Call of Duty tournament in the UK, all (presumably) straight, White males who were trying to discredit each other’s masculinity by comparing them to something deemed culturally less masculine (in this case, they were calling each other fags). Unacceptable behavior is unacceptable behavior, regardless of race, class, gender, sexual identity, socio-economic status or anything.

You found that more offensive than even the people who were called like that. Maybe they understood the context of that statement, which is key, while you imagine them going to beat up some gays on the street after the tournament?

If my friend wins the lottery and I call him a lucky son of a bitch, that does not mean that I actually disrespect him, his mother, or women in general. The context of that statement is vital to the meaning and don’t pretend you don’t understand this as an adult.

I would be acting the same if Renic was the person in the hot seat mostly because man or woman, you don’t say you’re going to smell someone and then mock them on stream.

Mocking implies intention of harm, which Aris didn’t have.

[Magegg]

**Aris was being a dick, but she chose not to do the smart thing and tell him to stop, expecting every single person to pick up on your body language is idiotic and if she was in possession of any semblance of a spine, she would have stood up for herself or gotten somebody else to do it if she feels she doesn’t have the gall to do it.

If anybody is sexist, it’s people like you that think that women have to be handled with kiddy gloves because they’re emotionally fragile and unable to take the same flak as men. Guilt yourself and feel bad for being born with a dick, but don’t expect anybody with a spine to follow suit.**

Non everyone is the same, in temperament. Not for being a woman, but Miranda in specific looks like a shy and inoffensive person. She was too scared/menaced/freaked out to react, and no, you can’t blame her, but to Aris for bullying her.

[Mancub]

**Aris was being a dick, but she chose not to do the smart thing and tell him to stop, expecting every single person to pick up on your body language is idiotic and if she was in possession of any semblance of a spine, she would have stood up for herself or gotten somebody else to do it if she feels she doesn’t have the gall to do it.

If anybody is sexist, it’s people like you that think that women have to be handled with kiddy gloves because they’re emotionally fragile and unable to take the same flak as men. Guilt yourself and feel bad for being born with a dick, but don’t expect anybody with a spine to follow suit.**

Non everyone is the same, in temperament. Not for being a woman, but Miranda in specific looks like a shy and inoffensive person. She was too scared/menaced/freaked out to react, and no, you can’t blame her, but to Aris for bullying her.

So menaced and abused that she continuously laughed at his jokes and went along with it as if she was a willing, albeit skeptical part of it. So yes, I can blame her for not being an adult and taking the direct, proper approach. She didn’t bring his jokes on herself, but she certainly made little to no effort to halt them.

But anyway, this thread isn’t about Aris exclusively, it’s about the FGC as a whole. It can be abrasive, it can be rough on the exterior, but when you go to an arcade with nice people at it, which is the majority, then the only thing of relevance is your gaming ability. You get an odd dick here and there, but people are delusional if they think that abusing some random person is an activity the majority of players partake in.

[Magegg]

So menaced and abused that she continuously laughed at his jokes and went along with it as if she was a willing, albeit skeptical part of it.

Nevous laughter at the beginning, started to tell him to stop later.

So yes, I can blame her for not being an adult and taking the direct, proper approach.

Because she was terrified. I mean, yeah, you sign up for a televized contest between adults, and the first thing you expect to find is a fat sexist pig telling you gross sexual advances on front of the camera and nobody giving a crap about it. She made a great effort to act natural but she was shocked! All of you would be if you were in her situation!

She was not able to handle the situation, she tried to dissimulate, she was firm enough, I conceed, but you shouldn’t blame her for being bullied. If anything, you must despise Aris even more for picking a “weak” person to bully and molest! What an asshole!

He was like “yeah, let’s say gross sexual things to the kind, well-mannered girl, she’s too shy to defend herself! She’s going to have a great time!”.
That’s the equivalent of insulting and kicking Ghandi in the balls. What kind of jerk would have fun by doing that?!".

Seriously, you should never condescend with the bully, never try to justifiy it, or be on his side! You make me sick.

[atirador]

but people are delusional if they think that abusing some random person is an activity the majority of players partake in.

Maybe not partake in, but there’s a fairly amount of players that are willing to defend it here

[TaurusDrey]

DEMAND that a girl take off her shirt even after she said no? Do you mean:

'‘Loser takes off their shirt!"
Miranda laughs.
’'You lost, take off your shirt!"
She laughs again.

Subject is dropped.

Maybe you could provide timestamps for when he DEMANDS, in a threatening way, that she should take her shirt off? Or hell, any INSTANCE where he threatened her with violence or implied that if she didn’t do something, he would harm her in any way? The stupidest shit was the whole smelling thing, where she seemed very uncomfortable at the end. But prior to him doing it, she was laughing and going ‘Okay, I’ll try harder!’

I had to actually rewatch the videos to get the phrasing and shit in check, and nearly EVERY JOKE he made towards her was responded to with genuine laughter, with the least amount of uncomfortableness possible. I actually remembered what he had done as worse, but looking at it now it was nowhere near as bad as it was presented initially.

She seems pretty uncomfortable basically right from the start, to me; the first time he smells her is a minute twenty seconds in. Of course, you know if her laughter was genuine better than she does, so she’s clearly mistaken about having been upset by his remarks. Her silly woman brain remembered wrong, I guess. Good thing she has men on the internet to tell her how she felt. The thread isn’t about Aris, it’s about how insane it is that no-one is willing to accept that it’s reasonable for someone to be uncomfortable because of how he acted. He gets every possible excuse, everything is blamed on her, and she is lambasted for feeling unsafe.

In example, the full quotation was:
“Loser takes their shirt off.”
“Hell no.”
“Look, I’m the coach here, Miranda. I don’t wanna hear anything out of you.”
[nervous laughter] “Okay, no. I’m trying to play, Aris, you’re messing me up.”
“You need to be able to focus when people are heckling you.”
“That’s fine, but, like, you, this is just creepy.”
“You need to be able to play when people are harassing you.”
“Thanks for that, Aris.”
“Take off your shirt.”

So, after supposedly re-watching to get the phrasing right, you not only got most of the quotations you included wrong, but you left out her saying his behavior was creepy and saying “no” to him not once, but twice. He keeps insisting, regardless. It’s not even really fair to argue that he’s continuing the “loser takes off their shirt” remark to its logical conclusion, since he tells her to take her shirt off again before the match is over and doesn’t tell the other kid to take his off when, in fact, Miranda wins. This segways into the skirt discussion, and then right into smelling heragain. He keeps saying and doing things she has asked him not to do or say, it doesn’t matter that he was joking, that behavior can come off as menacing. Miranda was totally justified in feeling uncomfortable or even afraid because of how he acted. It’s not her fault he made her feel uncomfortable. It’s not her fault he didn’t stop when she asked.

Also, for the record, tataki, what you’re talking about is not what George Carlin is talking about; “bullshit hyperbole” is the exact opposite of “soft language.” To clarify, “hyperbole” is like your example of calling everyone who disagrees with you a Nazi, “soft language” is calling sexual harassment “clowning,” or “a dry wit,” so that it sounds like an okay thing to do.

[jedpossum]

So how about my rights to marry a guy? if were going to try and make this an equal rights thing or not get kicked out of an apartment for having a one night stand with a guy as well.

[Leebee_Link]

Miranda discourse in this thread:

Blaming the Victim III: Third Strike