I disagree with a lot of those match-ups actually.
For instance Bison/Sagat isn’t a 6-4. Sagat still has certain pokes up close that beat ours (c.fierce).
I also can’t see Bison/Cammy being 6-4 Bison. I was talking to one of my friends who mains Cammy about this and sure Bison can keep her out but once she gets you knocked down you’re in trouble as she has various OS’s she can use against you from there on in. A Cammy with 2 bars can do about a third of Bisons HP in one combo and around half of his stun.
I also don’t think Bison/Rufus is 6-4. Same applies with this and the Cammy match-up. You can keep them out but once he gets in close Bisons game is limited.
Sagat c.HP doesn’t beat anything. Only thing Sagat really has is Tiger Shot game and Tiger Uppercuts. You frame trap him to death and he’ll be forced to uppercut or throw random pokes to interrupt. He can’t consistently out poke Bison.
As for the rest, the Japanese Bison are probably doing what they do best; keepaway and being super lame. Kuma did get pretty far with his team at Nagoya Street Battle, that speaks plenty for itself.
I didn’t say he could consistently outpoke Bison but he controls the spacing long/medium range. I was believed to be that his cr.hp beats st.rh if spaced correctly.
Well considering s.hk lost a bit of it’s horizontal poke use, you could probably just use s.mk instead to beat out Sagat’s c.fp. It’s just as fast as s.rh and can be used in a more horizontal poke against crouching opponent.
Well I have a project that I am going to soon be working on (once i get a GOOD camcorder and inquire some info) and it will be similar to this… M.Bison (Dictator) Matchups
I for a long time wanted to start something like this for SSF4 (and AE) getting a true indepth look on matchups and videos linked to those players in that matchup but instead of mastery, as a skill of level will be determined of the player by tournaments, Battle Points/Player Points, ranked match, casual (high level mostly) etc.
It will then follow links on youtube to all they’re matches.
super nohoho fighter ii x: Super Diagram Turbo Version 2
^
This is the diagram project done by Nohoho awile ago and this is what i have in mind for the score chart to look like more or less for Super. SSF4 much like ST has high depth to it in terms of matchups but much much more technical so a matchup that is 6-4 in a characters favor may actually be a 5.5 or even 6.5 for or against the character is something that has to be looked at thougroughly. I dont like Japans score chart in SSF4 because its not specific enough if people understand where Im coming from and this will give a good indepth insight on American views on matchups. I do have a formula for how this will go I just need to start gathering the resources and gathering info from different players. I dont want to give a specific frametime but this will more than likely happen as AE hits arcades if not a little after so I’d like to know your opinions on it.
I recently progressed in the bison vs guile match up and it seems like a 5.5:4.5 match up to me. Guile doesn’t have many options once jailed it seems. Also his wake up options are bad and once he is down on life he can’t comeback very well. I know there is probably something I’m missing but I don’t see how this is a 7:3 matchup.
It’s a 7:3 matchup because the Guile player only has to play solid to win, while the Bison player relies on the guile having to make mistakes. Bison doesn’t have the ability to force untechable knockdowns, which means setting the Guile up for crossups (his main weakness) is a little difficult. Once cornered, the matchup looks a little better, but a good Guile won’t just hold back, and will instead make you work for pushing him into the corner. Getting a life lead is also difficult, since he is able to control space so well. You have to stay in his face the whole time, and 1 flashkick/sweep/throw means you’ve got to work your way in all over again.
Guile’s only screwed in the corner.
When he’s cornered his options are: block till dic is pushed back, and then guess (as much as dic has to guess). Nothing else.
If he guesses right (it’s mostly 50/50, and even an EX FK will usually get him out of trouble, even if he takes some damage for it), he’s out of the corner.
And once he’s out of the corner, it’s time to rape dic again.
It IS 7-3.
[media=youtube]APgxHJHeDeM]YouTube - ?? lsy9983 [Bison] vs Lkia [Guile[/media] (rape)
[media=youtube]8aM1IRliD44[/media] (rape)
[media=youtube]Zas8fMI8T9Q]YouTube - ?? lsy9983 [Bison] vs hangahanga [Guile[/media] (shitty guile who couldn’t keep up the zoning and started laming out)
[media=youtube]JeIoZ6BA6iw]YouTube - ?? lsy9983 [Bison] vs America CNT [Guile[/media] (a retardedly offensive/jumpy guile… who doesn’t know what zoning means)
[media=youtube]eCcn8ySNeW8[/media] (Kim1234 being aggressive/careless as fuck, and being punished for it :D, but kudos on the psychic Ultra)
Now ask Dagger_G/Yazu/Yoshiwo/Fujisawa to play a dic, and see what happens.
Two perfects.
i’m not facing dagger g opponents but then again im not as good as andre, andy, kim, etc as bison. i just really dont think its that hard to get in with patience. i also think bison has the better spacing options in the matchup bc guile isn’t so good at advancing as he is holding his ground. the videos kinda show my take on the matchup and how i use to play it. if you don’t hand guile free damage he can’t earn it very well. if you subtract the free damage given from the bisons the matches would have been fairly even or in bisons favor. i just don’t think guile can earn more damage than bison in the matchup overall. i expect the match to go 99 secs evertytime facing guile bc i believe other players mistakes is how he wins and i take my time and dictate the tempo. if a bison player gives guile 0 anti air punishes and 0 backhands landed i don’t feel the guile will earn enough damage to win the match. bisons mix up game is too strong for guile once this happens for guile to win.
Howso? Guile throws a Sonic Boom and Bison can’t do jack about it that doesn’t involve a guess which would lead to free damage for Guile (Ex-SK/Ex-PC). Otherwise he has to take the chip damage and Guile can do this indefinitely. After throwing a Sonic Boom, Guile can walk behind it (gaining ground) or can do back+lk (I think that’s the right move) that goes forward while retaining charge.
Sonic Boom is free chip damage that Guile can always get. Bison has to take damage to get in.
Bison can’t do anything to Guile safely and once Guile gets outside st. mk range, he can throw sonic booms for free.
Howso? Guile throws a Sonic Boom and Bison can’t do jack about it that doesn’t involve a guess which would lead to free damage for Guile (Ex-SK/Ex-PC). Otherwise he has to take the chip damage and Guile can do this indefinitely. After throwing a Sonic Boom, Guile can walk behind it (gaining ground) or can do back+lk (I think that’s the right move) that goes forward while retaining charge.
I like to play the opponent so the approach is different quite often. if he throws a sonic and doesn’t move forward ex sk is safe from 3/4 screen distance as far as i know. if i dont want to engage or make a move forward i just jump over it bc im usually full screen away. i like to go full screen at the start to see what kinda of player he is sonic boom wise. if he follows the sonic boom i think he just brought himself into your desired range anyway. sometimes i take a chance though and just crouch at the start and wait for them to back up to sb and go for slide based on anticipation of a sb.
the main thing is bison foot speed. guile isnt bad with foot speed but he can’t compete with bison spacing due to his moves imo. after watching isy and kim quite a bit i don’t have many problems with opponents jump ins bc of bison’s speed and moves. it doesnt seem like much but once he is down he will take more chances that lead to jump ins to make up for the damage imo.
Sonic Boom is free chip damage that Guile can always get. Bison has to take damage to get in.
its only sonic boom chip damage and i dont think any player has ever loss to guile bc he got 100% chip damage from sonic boom its a small factor and sk chip damage plays a role also so it evens things out nearly.
**Bison can’t do anything to Guile safely and once Guile gets outside st. mk range, he can throw sonic booms for free. **
i dont see it as a i must be safe match up im viewing it as a don’t fall for his gimmicks and grind him out till he makes a mistake, you see his pattern (if there is one),or he gives you an oppurtunity but most importantly to play smart and patient all 99 secs. if you consider guile’s offensive options that don’t revolve around sb he doesn’t have much imo. if you neutralize or minimize that he will lose chacnes are bc he can’t do anything else at a decent level imo.
So you don’t approach Guile at all then? There is plain and simple no way, as Bison, you are going to approach Guile without taking some sort of damage. If you just sit back and eat chip damage, Guile is more than content to do that for 99 seconds. You’re then stuck in a position where you must then move yourself towards Guile. To be frank, the odds are stacked up against Bison. You’re going to mess up, you’re going to eat a backfist, booms, anti-airs, and get air grabbed.
Guile does A LOT of damage, you can’t just go in willy-nilly and win. Even with a well-thought out strategy you’re still left in many 50-50 situations where you simply can’t win all of them.
As far as mix ups, Akuma’s and Abel’s mixups are the few in the game that are potent enough to eradicate Guile’s possible escape, and that’s one reason they are favored against Guile. Bison has a good mixup game to those who don’t know Bison. Don’t get me wrong, its good, but it’s not vortex-status. All of this in conjunction to Bison’s low damage output, just leaves Bison SOL.
Honestly, and don’t take this the wrong way, it seems like you’re playing shitty Guiles. First off, Ex-SK is pretty much never safe. I don’t even know if it’s safe hitting just the tip like the other ones are. Either way, it’s not something you want to just “throw out there” because if/when Guile blocks it, you just ate free damage -OR- you wasted one meter doing absolutely nothing. Second, the only range in which Ex-SK is guaranteed to hit a sonic boom in recovery is approximately st. mk distance. Third, slow sonic booms travel slowly and ex-SK has really limited invincibility. If you’re not super close, you’re not gonna blow through his sonic boom with your ex-sk. And fourth, how does slide beat sonic boom?
No character has ever lost to sonic boom chip damage just like no character has ever lost to scissor kick chip damage. The problem is Guile can throw sonic booms from full screen and pretty much whatever Bison does to try to avoid it, he can get damaged. If he TPs backwards, he can still get hit by the boom. If he Ex-PC/Ex-SK Guile will probably block and punish. If he DRs, Guile can walk forward and cr. fierce. If he headstomps, Guile can block it and air throw the skull diver. Bison can only throw two scissor kicks before he starts getting stuffed by Guile normals. Bison has to come to Guile. Guile is like an impenetrable fortress.
Guile doesn’t need to use gimmicks. He pretty much just has to sonic boom and crouching fierce (with other moves sprinkled in) and Bison loses. Doesn’t matter if you see his patterns. What if I told you all I’m gonna do is sonic boom if I’m at least 1/4 screen from you, crouching fierce all jumpins, and throw sonic booms every once in a while when we’re close? There’s still almost nothing Bison can do about it except plain out play the Guile player and take advantages of mistakes. Yeah if you play smart and patient for 99 seconds, you’re more likely to win. That doesn’t mean you WILL win though. It’ll still be hard. And Guile doesn’t need offensive options outside of sonic boom. That IS his offensive weapon. In and of itself, it doesn’t seem that great. It does like 10 damage, but it has so many great properties along with Guile’s general toolset that it pretty much defines him as a character.
I mean seriously, how do you propose to neutralize his sonic boom?
idk i think you make it easy for guile to win
**
What if I told you all I’m gonna do is sonic boom if I’m at least 1/4 screen from you, crouching fierce all jumpins, and throw sonic booms every once in a while when we’re close?**
this is exactly how i want the guile to play and why i say to play patient. if you just take your time you will see the guile has no options really but this type of stuff. this is where you can trade ex sk for his sb which will move you in even closer. you can also move forward but not close enough to where he can backhand you and wait. i like to study my opponent as i said then develop the attack plan. the purpose of not moving into backhand range is to see if he uses it. if he uses backhand once he will more than likely use it again bc he wants to hold his ground so just use c.fp to beat it or at least make him think twice.
once you want to move up into mk range go for it and thats where the patience and mind games start for me. you have so many options here. you can c.mp into sk for chip damage and be in range for another poke or sk if you want to pressure. i personally rarely use sk without it being part of a combo bc he might stuff your sk. c.mp into s.mk or c.mp into s.hk. etc etc you have lots of options. depending on your spacing you can easily just walk back if he jumps in and use c.lk into sk for free chip damage or of course get free damage and a clean hit by using ex pc to beat his jump in. obviously you can stuff his sb attempts with mk also so i dont feel he has many viable offensive options
the entire point of that for me is to feel him out and to encourage him to take chances with fk. so a 50/50 is no longer true bc there is a low risk high reward and i’m waiting for fk’s to start appearing to either punish or waste 2 bars bluffing. if he waste’s two bars then its a good time to apply more pressure knowing he can’t fadc that fk safely again (assuming he doesn’t have 2 bars left of course.) this is where i like to apply more pressure. imo this kinda of 50/50 is really in bisons favor bc guile can’t comeback if down on life so well and one c.mk to sk is too much for him. at some point he will decide he has too use an fk to get you off and if you werent in too much of a rush for pressure he will likely miss. if he refuses to fk then just keep grinding it out slowly without taking many risks. i just don’t see bison losing to guile if bison is unwilling to jump into c.fp or walk into defensive pokes from guile.
also, i like to back up an use dr at the start of the match and or focus some sb’s for meter. i like to see what the guile player will do so i will do dr but only move to about 4/6 of the screen then click a punch to see if the guile was anticipating that as my get in move and attempted an air throw. the start tells alot of the player for me but thats just my opinion.
if you arent expecting a 99sec battle vs guile then it’s a 7:3 matchup and if he lands two or more c.fp in the match you deserve to lose imo
also i’d like to add that if i don’t like my spacing for whatever reasons i’ll just walk back and reset the tempo of the match.
You pretty much said why it’s a bad match up above. Guile limits Bison’s movement options to pretty much just walking and blocking. You say that you like to study your opponent. But if you’re playing someone good, they will be doing the same thing. What’s more, in this case they will know that they do limit those options, and will be looking to counter the only safe one knowing that it’s your best option. This isn’t a single player game.
Again, I ask which Guiles you’re playing? Matchup charts are based on high level competition. You say that you focus sonic booms? Good Guiles will walk behind it, and have a backfist ready for you if you try to focus. You say you devils reverse away? Good Guiles will punish that with an ex boom, or dash up and fierce you, or back+lk into range and have a sonic hurricane waiting for you. You’ve completely neglected his stand fierce, which is faster than your mk, does 100 damage, is +frames on block, and basically beats anything you throw after a scissor kick if you aren’t in low short range. At the end of the day, Guile wins because he puts you in a situation where he can chip away at you safely, while you have to make good reads to get damage (ironically enough, this is Bison’s game-plan in most matchups).
If you want some real insight into that matchup, ask Kim, Andre or Andy about it. They compete against some of the best Guiles in the world. I’m sure they can give you plenty of reasons why this matchup sucks.
You’ve completely neglected his stand fierce, which is faster than your mk, does 100 damage, is +frames on block**
Again, I ask which Guiles you’re playing? Matchup charts are based on high level competition. You say that you focus sonic booms?
i play online and I haven’t faced a Guile devoted to using backhand so i feel it is safe to say i am no expert versus guile and agree its not a single player game. i dont think any bison expects to get in through only fa and obviously its best to mix things and timing up constantly to continue moving forward. this would include not poking after sk since you already know the guile is anticipating it. the entire reason behind it being 7:3 is guile stops everything he anticipates bison to do yet many bisons continue to do the anticipated. once again though i am no expert versus guile.
i dont see it as a 7:3 but if someone does i can can understand and respect why
Dem Matchup numbahs are based on Top players fighting each other. Not online ranked matches.
You haven’t come across a decent guile. I’m not a decent guile. But get on the guile subforums, and look for someone actually good and well known, and politely ask them to have a few matches with you.