Ryu/Sagat & Akuma vs Bison are dead even imo.
and whats the deal with Ken?
Just an overall nuisance from the mid to close range game with pokes and kara-throws.
I see Cammy as Bison’s worst matchup in Vanilla, but somewhat less so in Super, I still can’t beat a good one anyway.
To be honest its a little worse in Super in Vanilla it was actually pretty even, she did get some pretty subtle buffs and most of those help her against Bison. I would personally say slight advantage to Cammy in Super.
His DP got buffed big time, and I swear they improved his step kick thing, I used to be able to punish that in Vanilla.
whats so buff about it?
They improved the recovery on it, harder to punish but not impossible. I can’t count the times I bait and block a lp dp from him go to punish like I did an vanilla and eat a lp dp as he does it again. I am slowly readjusting to the actual window I have to punish him though.
I am sure he got other improvements those are just the ones I can think of off the top of my head.
His LP Shoryuken does seem to recover pretty good and the hit box on MP Shoryuken has probably always been pretty big but I feel like I get hit by it a lot whereas I normally probably wouldn’t be hit by it if it were Ryu. Might has to do with how their moves go up or more diagonal up.
I don’t know, I don’t have a problem punishing it, I go for the punish when he is coming down, not when he lands, for obvious reasons you just stated. I thought Ken was always able to do two lp DP back to back even in sf4?
I’d say the only thing that makes ken a bit scary is when he goes for crlk baits and punish with his throw, but all in all its a strong footsie dependent match up.
Yeah I always waited till he touched the ground because in vanilla whenever I did otherwise it reset him which I did not want, I wanted to punish him not let him get away with just a cr.mk hit, timing issue on my end. Anyways like I said slowly adjusting.
neutral jump like a jerk vs chars with weak AA. thats what they do to use and it works pretty well. that messes with makoto abel and thawk.
i concur with stabicron’s observations on ken dp having better recovery. iirc, he recovered instantly upon landing in like ST or something-- i wonder if thats the case now.
Im pretty sure Kens DP has jacked up invincibility too…
They made a few changes to Ken’s jab dp:
They cut 3 frames off of Ken’s jab dp recovery, but he’s still at -14. I’m not entirely positive, but I believe they cut the 3 frames off from the time he spends on the ground. This means the timing to punish with a combo is a bit tighter, otherwise you reset him in the air. He used to spend 9 frames on the ground, 17 frames falling down in the air.
They changed the startup of his light dp from 4 frames to 3. If they didn’t change the invincibility frames, that means that his invincibility now covers the first active frame, which is pretty key to making it a better move. Again, I’m not positive because they never translated the notes and I don’t have the frame videos in front of me.
meh, as long as we’re appealing to authority, Mago feels that Ken still loses to Bison. Mago also thinks Fei Long is top tier, so take that for what it’s worth.
The Japanese wiki was updated with Bison’s matchups. Here’s the odds in Bison’s favor:
SUPER STREET FIGHTER IV Wiki - ???
Ryu 6:4
Ken 5:5
Chun Li 4:6
Honda 4:6
Blanka 6:4
Zangief 4:6
Guile 3:7
Dhalsim 5:5
Balrog (Boxer) 5:5
Vega (Claw) 6:4
Sagat 6:4
Bison (Dictator)
Viper 6:4
Rufus 6:4
El Fuerte 6:4
Abel 6:4
Akuma 6:4
Gouken 6:4
Seth 5:5
Sakura 6:4
Fei Long 6:4
Dan 6:4
Cammy 6:4
Gen 6:4
Rose 5:5
Dee Jay 5:5
T. Hawk 6:4
Juri 6:4
Adon 6:4
Cody 6:4
Guy 6:4
Ibuki 6:4
Makoto 7:3
Dudley 6:4
Hakan 7:3
At this point, Bison sits with Chun Honda and Guile in the same tier. There’s an overwhelming number of 6:4’s in Bison’s favor which I disagree with, but it is a wiki afterall.
That japanese wiki is definitely wrong in so many ways. Unless they want to put low skill bisons vs low skill opponents. Anywhere higher skills to top of US, Bison does not have THAT much a clear advantage. (For starters, Ken is 5.5 Ken favor, and Adon should be 5/5, Fei Long is also 5/5, and i’m pretty certain Fuerte HAS to be 5/5, he’s just too damn random after a knockdown. Chun is like 4:6 until Bison gets U2, then it’s 5/5 imo)
i agree more with something like this:
Dictator ratings
Abel- 5.5-4.5 Abel
Adon- 5/5
Akuma- 5.5-4.5 Akuma
Balrog- 5/5
Blanka- 5/5
Cammy- 5/5
ChunLi- 5.5-4.5 Chun (6-4 chun until Dic gets U2)
Cody- 6-4 Dic
Dan- 6-4 Dic
DeeJay- 5.5-4.5 Dic (Don’t know much about him yet)
Dudley- 5.5-4.5 Dic
Fei Long- 5/5
Fuerte- 5/5 (Bison has great tools against Fuerte, but his U2 plus randomness makes it even)
Gen- 6.5 Dic
Gouken- 6-4 Dic
Guile- 7-3 Guile (Still worst matchup same as Vanilla)
Guy- 5/5
Hakan- 6-4 Dic
Honda- 5.5-4.5 Honda (he can chip you more to death even if u 2 are in a deadlock)
Ibuki- 5.5-4.5 Dic (dont’ know this matchup too well but this seems about right)
Juri- 5.5-4.5 Dic
Ken- 5.5-4.5 Ken (a good Ken makes this matchup tougher than Ryu)
Makoto- 6-4 Dic (maybe NinjaCW can prove us otherwise over time)
Rose- 5.5-4.5 Rose (haven’t faced great Rose players yet to really tell)
Rufus- 5/5 Rufus (I think U1 is great for this matchup though)
Ryu- 5/5
Sagat- 5.5-4.5 Dic
Sakura- 6-4 Dic
Seth- 5.5-4.5 Dic
Sim- 5.5-4.5 Dic
T. Hawk- 5/5 Dic
Vega- 5.5-4.5 Dic
Viper- 5.5 Dic
Zangief- 6-4 Gief
I dunno, the more I play the Abel matchup, the more I’m leaning toward it being a 5-5. A couple of reasons:
-Abel’s mixup after a blocked step kick is not really that strong. He is at neutral advantage, but since the fastest move Abel has is 4 frames, you can beat pretty much everything he has by doing a throw or crouching short. The mistake most people make is to try and jump or backdash out, but that usually ends up with them being reset or eating a crouch jab into a combo. If he has no meter, just short him to death. Once he has meter, you have to watch out for EX COD or EX TT, but he has to burn meter for that. A good mix of throwing and shorting with the occasional neutral jump does the trick.
-Abel’s mixups after COD fadc are a little strong since he has frame advantage, but again, he has to burn meter.
-When you are rushing Abel down and he has no meter, he really has no options to deal with short scissors pressure. If meterless Abel blocks a lk scissorkick, he has to block the followup cr short as well. This goes for pressure on wakeup, in the corner, anywhere. Abel needs meter to get out. This is important because…
-Abel also needs meter to land big damage. Without meter, he can’t perform any of his high damage combos, all of which require him to fadc. He also can’t combo into soulless, which is the better ultra in this matchup, due to the fact that…
-Breathless sucks against Bison. Seriously. For starters, Bison doesn’t have that many unsafe moves that are directly punishable by breathless. The ones that are can also be punished by soulless anyway (ex psycho crusher at close range, devils reverse, but you shouldn’t be doing those anyway). Provided you aren’t doing the wrong thing and jumping like an idiot or continuing to try and short when he has it, if Abel pops breathless Bison has at least 3 solid counters to it:
-headstomp: if he releases immediatly, you both end up on the opposite ends of the screen, and he wasted an ultra. If he holds it and absorbs the headstomp, then you can land wherever you want and punish him. If he tries to cancel, he eats the headstomp anyway.
-EX scissors: as long as you are in range for it to hit twice, it beats breathless cleanly. And if you’re not in range, you can jump back out of breathless range anyway.
-Ultra: You ultra, I ultra. Ultra 2 works the same way as headstomp.
The key to the matchup I think is to get the Abel player to burn meter trying to get away from you or get out of your pressure. If you can do that, you rob them of their biggest damage opportunities, which makes the matchup much easier I think.
You guys forgot these lists are opinions.
Yeah, it’s all personal opinion. It is interesting to see the averaged out list though, since it shows what matchups other Bison players seem to struggle with. Having that info will make the matchup topics more beneficial, since it shows what matchups need to be broken down and explained better.
All the more reason to discuss/argue them, IMO. Especially when you get a list like the JP wiki … making Bison look straight gdlk. o_O
I never knew you were at even frames vs abel after a blocked step kick! Well that certainly will help me.