DId you look at my blog? It helps.
Can you tell where you are losing the match? What situation/s are having trouble dealing with?
The more info you give the me, the more precisely I can give advice.
In HDR… I only go for the Fp throw, unless I am deep in the sprite. Otherwise, at great distances she’ll throw you first if you try to throw with mp.
Here’s another vid from evo
[media=youtube]gEX-1VlHO9A&feature=PlayList&p=5954AF1A56CBB593&index=23[/media]
where’s your blog?
I think the key is the drills and keeping her not to close but close enough where she cant dictate the match with jump-ins. Like I said I will keep studying the vids. I think I am starting to figure some things out. Fatboy I am at work but I will write something up with regards to why she gives me fits.
hi ktm, this is jza. I agree, claw is a lot worse due to the wall dive attack. When I play either Claw or Chun, I sometime will walk into a tick kick for a trade of Noogie then follow up with air drill attack.
Oh come on! I was expecting a new post…
Well I seem to be doing better overall but here are my 5 issues: 1. Teleport glitch can be real annoying. You have to try it in the corner but the randomness just stinks. 2. Reversal super is not consistent. Is there a way to practice this? 3. Chun Li and Balrog are still killing me. I cant seem to get the spacing right with chun li but I’m getting there. Is there really a sound way to stop Balrog dash punches? It seems silly you have to throw random punches or spam crouching jab and hope they connect. That just doesnt seem right nor logical. I also dont see any videos for that fight. The ones I see Sim gets destroyed 4. I struggle against top players. I played afro legends and I looked like I never had played the game. I guess I still need to learn matchups better. 5. Is Gian really that good? I looked at a tier listing he helped compile and with exception of Vega and Chun Li which was even, he had Sim favorable for all his matchups.
And when I mention struggling against top players I mean a player who has mastered their character, which ultimately means I need to learn mine more.
-
Yep. The glitch sucks. Nothing can be done about it. You might be able to get away with it in the corner if you anticipate your opponent’s move early enough, but chances are there’s probably a less complex anti-air/counter/evasive maneuver that’s easier to pull of that could be done instead.
-
First, are you 100% on doing the super in general? It’s a relatively awkward super to do compared to the rest of the cast. Make sure you can do it without thinking. If not, try to “feel” what the motion for the super is like. If so, then, do you mean reversal on wakeup? If yes, try this: Go into practice mode, pick Ryu as 2p and set 2P for manual control. Get a rubber band and stick it on the analog of the 2p controller so that 2p character is always crouching. Now make it so that you can comfortably tap the RH button on 2p controller With your toe and practice doing super on wake up. Its not perfect, but its better than nothing.
Of course, if you have a buddy who’s willing to help you practice, that’d be a billion times easier :lol:
- “Getting the spacing right on Chun Li,” is a bit vague, so I can’t really give an answer for that. What I can say is to go on Fatboy’s blog and watch all 3 videos of Gian in action in the “I really hate Chun-Li” part of his blog. That’s a great resource. No seriously, its a great resource. Much better than you think…
I don’t think there’s a “sound” way of stopping his dash punches everytime. I mean you CAN stop then of course, but that’s part of the tension that makes this match the way it is. Distance is certainly your friend. The farther away you are, the more likely you are to anticipate those dash punches. However, you can’t randomly span limbs either because a good Boxer player will crouch down and use his limbs to trade with yours … and god help you if he head butts them. However, not using them entirely is just as bad since this allows him to just walk forward without punishment. You need to find that delicate balance through experience and through watching others.
Chances are the vids you were watching were Tsuji vs Gian. Here’s one vid of Gian winning over Tsuji
[media=youtube]abLB2SFbb-4&feature=PlayList&p=66E50D7B7D95FF37&index=0[/media]
there should be links to the other 9 upon clicking this one. Both are top players, so rather than going through the mindset of “Sim got destroyed by Boxer”, you should look at what works and what didn’t for each character. you’ll get more mileage that way.
- You’re supposed to struggle against top players. If you didn’t, then this game would be pretty boring! Top players are great because they give you a reality check. You shouldn’t be too discouraged. Afrolegends makes tons of people look like they’re complete noobs. However, there’s always somebody better.
To encourage you a little bit, watch Afrolegends completely blow his lead on Daigo in the second round of the first match.
[media=youtube]O3wdoe2qFqo[/media]
- Is Gian really that good?
[media=youtube]qSwsL7tTO8k&feature=related[/media]
He won EVO 2k5 that year
He also has his own recital named after him
And I think he’s one of the four “Kings” in Super Turbo in Japan (can someone confirm this?)
Yep.
I feel you have to slowly press forward against Chun. You actually limit many of her options. Sooner or later, she’ll back herself up against the wall.
Until I have a lead in life I always try to slowly push forward. It takes Chun out of her comfort zone. Jumps can be countered or traded, if your quick you can punish fireballs/LLKs with mummies, and you’ll be presented w/ opportunities for grabs simply b/c your close enough to do so.
I see many Sims make the mistake of trying to keep a distance and out zone Chun, unless you have a sizable lead in life, this is a HUGE mistake:
-
You give Chun free meter. She’ll Just fireball and LLK until the cows come home. Last thing you ever want is Chun with meter… Even in HDR.
-
She doesn’t have to commit to attacking you. With a lead in life, she can wait the clock out. Many Chun players have NO issue waiting on a clock. There not going to give you free damage.
-You allow her to create her spacing. Every Sim player knows that Chun has that sweet spot where she can Fireball> jumping MK (hits you with the tip)>HP>Fireball (or cr.mk>LLK) > take a smal step back > repeat; with very little consequence. She’ll do it over and over. She’ll mix in some throws and mix ups, but ultimately its her game at that point. If you try to counter, you either trade a hit, take a fireball, get thrown, eat a quick LLK combo, or take a straight jump attack in the face. **Don’t let her create her spacing. **
Sims 5 solid air counters to Chun’s jump-ins are as follows (not counting super):
Really close: Walk Under> throw
Semi close: b+mp (even for trade is OK), up flame (better be quick!)
About 35-45% screen away: This is tough, up flame is an option but not consistent.
45% - 60% away: Jump back FP/RH.
60%-70% away: Jump back drill.
There is a bit more, but this is the core of her options. IMHO
- fatboy :china:
Lots of people seem to have trouble with Honda and Sirlin asked me to help out a guy on his forums, so I wrote up a big Vs. Honda guide. So, here it is…
Honda is a tricky match. Once you become really good at it, I think the match is at least even, and maybe even in Sim’s favor. However, you have to have your techniques down and really play on point for that to be true.
General Gameplan
If you keep him out, you win. If he gets on top of you or corners you, you lose. That should be your mindset. I’ve found it helps to remind yourself of this from time to time. If you lose a round/match, don’t reflect as much on what you did wrong once he was on top of you. Instead, think about how/why he got close to you to begin with. Once you focus mostly on your zoning game, it will make it easier to learn from your mistakes and tighten up your game.
Good zoning tools
Literally every single move that Dhalsim has is useful in various situations in this match, but these are the most noteworthy:
Fireball: This one is obvious. It’s a really good tool, but it’s only great from far away. Don’t use it (too) much once he gets closer.
Down-back LP: Next to fireball, this may be his best move in this match. Spaced properly on the ground, it beats almost anything he can do. It beats HHS, torpedoes, and even the super! Getting solid at hitting him out of these is key to this match. It also beats most of his pokes(I think his HK sweep is the exception). It can also be used as anti-air from the right distance. So, when in doubt, use this move to beat things. Also, throw this move out at random to catch anything he might do next.
Far MP/HP: These are great pokes at 30~80% range. Mix up standing and crouching ones to make it hard for him to block these. Use these when it’s risky to fireball and mix them in with fireballs to make your long range pressure even harder. Just don’t be predictable. Good Hondas can torpedo or counter poke these.
Far MK/HK: Use these to hit them when they jump a fireball from full screen. Learn the range and timing of when to use each. Also note that you can punish any blocked super with an immediate far MK.
Max-range Yoga Flame: If you do a flame from max range early enough so that it’s active before he can do a move, then he MUST block it. There’s nothing he can do that beats it or gets away from it. Even his super loses to it. The best use for this is to make him eat chip damage and push him back on wake-up. If you’re lucky, they’ll try a move and eat damage. Then just do it again.
Down-back MP/MK: These moves have more range than LP, but their hitbox isn’t nearly as good. For example, do NOT use down-back + MP to beat a torpedo/super. They’re good for max range footsies, you can link into them off of drills, and they can be used as anti-air in some cases. Canceling these into fireball can be a good way to push him back out, but don’t do that all the time. If he predicts a fireball, he can jump back over you. So, mix up after these with far standing MP/MK, throw out a down-back LP, or just do nothing.
Back + LP: This is a great general purpose anti-air. If you’re really close to him it beats most of his moves. It can even beat his cross-ups if you have enough time to pull it out. In general if you’re close and need to hit him, but don’t know what to do, use this.
Back + MK: This is another great anti-air move. It works well for punishing whiffed butt-slams and such, but you’ll usually use this against jump-ins from mid-range. Good Honda’s will mix up which attacks they use. Beating his various attacks cleanly requires choosing the right move, at the right spacing, and at the right timing. That can be tough! Back + MK is the correct choice for some of those moves, but the great thing about it is that, at worst, it will still trade with just about anything. So, if you’re unsure
which anti-air to use at this range, just use this.
Jump back + HP: This is good anti-air for situations where you don’t have the time or spacing to correctly counter a move from the ground. For example, if Honda butt-slams while close to you it can be tough to counter it from the ground. If you jump back you can float until you see the right moment, then hit fierce. It also works well when he jumps from weird ranges.
Up Flame: If you’re quick on the draw you can use these to anti-air butt slams or close jump attempts. For the old schoolers, make sure to take advantage of the new quarter circle motion. It makes it slightly more reasonable to pull off on reaction. And don’t forget, quick LK up flames are a great way to build meter whenever there’s a lull in the action.
Slides: They’re not as useful in this match as in others. IMO, their best use is for block strings to push him out if he does get close. Just make sure to link cr.LP/MP/MK after the slide correctly. They’re also OK for general mobility(ex. slide after fireball to close distance). They can be used very well for anti-air against his jump-in MK/HK. However, the best Hondas mix up their jump-ins and many of his other moves beat the slide and lead to nasty things. So, if you can do it on reaction to one of those moves, great! But if you have any doubt, my advice is to use a different anti-air. Oh…and almost never try to slide throw him. It rarely works out well.
Back + MP: This move isn’t used as much as some of the others listed here, but it gets honorable mention for being the only normal that can anti-air his HK butt-slam when it will land on the front half of your head. The spacing this works best at is the position you start the round with. If he will land deeper than that though, this move can miss. The most common time this happens is if you are cornered and he does a HK butt slam that completely hugs the wall. When it’s that deep this move won’t work, but if it’s just a hair further out it will. The timing is also pretty tight. You want to hit your button right as he’s about to fall from the apex of his move.
Zoning at full-screen
You can throw a LOT of fireballs at this distance. He has absolutely no good answer for these. If he LP torpedoes through, you get a free standing HP. To be fair, if he anticipates your fireball, he can sometimes block the HP, but it still pushes him back out. So, it’s still a win-win. If he jumps forward you can MK/HK him out. If he jumps straight up, take a step forward and HK him. If he butt-slams you can hit him with various kicks depending on which one he does. This changes once he gets super though.
Once he has super at this range, you should mostly do nothing. And by all means, do NOT throw a fireball unless you see him take a step forward. You can throw out quick pokes to make you look active and bait him into doing something. But for the most part, you should just sit there and counter anything he does. If he walks forward, HP him or throw a fireball. If he jumps, kick him. If he torpedoes or supers, use down-back LP to hit him out of it(Get good at this!). If he does HHS, you can throw a fireball, but only if you do it immediately after he starts it. Otherwise it’s usually best to just wait and see what he does next. If you’re ahead in life, you’re in really good shape at this point. Until he blows his super, there’s no reason for you to take any big risks.
If you’re behind on life, then it gets a lot trickier. In this situation he can just sit there and counter anything you do. In this case, you still mostly play like you do above except you add more long range pokes into your game. So, you still mostly do nothing so that you can counter his moves, but during your string of fake attacks(back + LP, LK MK, etc), you throw in the occasional far standing MP/HP. The idea here is to very carefully walk forward and make him block or eat those so you can push him into the corner. Once he’s cornered you can start to pressure him a bit more. Stay around 75~50% of the screen away. Very carefully, and randomly, throw far standing and crouching MP/HP into the mix more. You’ll also have to gamble with fireballs/flames occasionally if he’s patient. With luck you can chip him down or get him to do something dumb so you can get back to a life lead.
Zoning at mid-screen
At this distance you should NOT throw a lot of fireballs. In fact try not to throw any at all! For many people, this will feel weird, and it may take some conditioning to unlearn the bad habit of throwing fireballs all the time. But trust me, this is the most common way for Honda to get on top of you and wreck your day.
Your goal at this range isn’t to beat him up, it’s to push him back out so you can go back to your EZ-mode fireball zoning plan. So, it’s all about smart pokes. Be sure to spam a bit of down-back LP at this range. It beats just about anything he’ll do. Mix this up with far MP and far crouching MP to push him out. Far MK works ok too occasionally, if you suspect he’s about to jump. Basically mix pauses to see what he’ll do next with these pokes. The only thing you really have to look out for at this range are jump-ins and butt-slams. You’ll have to vary the timing and frequency of your pokes so he can’t jump while you’re stuck in one. If he jumps from afar, use a regular anti-air. If he jumps up close or butt-slams, just jump back HP to knock him out of the sky. Then go back to poking him back.
Dealing with him up close - General Strategy
Like I said before, if he gets on top of you or corners you, you have essentially already lost the match. But don’t lose all hope! It is possible to get him off of you, just be mentally prepared to take a lot of damage(most of it chip or throws) in the process.
The specifics will be different depending on whether he gets on top of you at mid-screen, but the general game-plan should be the same: Stay calm, block a ton of his crap, try to avoid getting thrown, and wait for an opening to escape.
Dealing with him up close - Mid-screen
If he gets on top of you at mid-screen, expect lots of cross-ups. He’ll cross-up butt-slam, he’ll cross up with MK splash or HK. Make sure to block these correctly! If you don’t he’ll combo you or go into a throw and follow that up with more cross-ups. After 1~3 cross-ups, he’ll most likely go for a throw. This is your first chance to get out. If he’s close enough try to counter throw. Doing this is tricky though. His most common setup is cross up splash(D+MK), cr.LP, Ochio. If he combos the splash into cr.LP correctly you have zero chance of escaping this, because it will push you too far out. Your best bet is to try to counter throw during his land and cr.LP attempt. Your success rate will be low, but it’s better than nothing. If you expect a ground throw(or HHS) from further away, do a quick HK drill if you can to get off the ground. Try to link this into cr.LP/MK to get a bit of space. If you expect a jump-in throw, try to counter the throw. If he jumps from too far away, walk towards him to take the hit so you can counter throw anyway. Don’t be afraid to take a little damage to get him off of you. Your goal is to get away at any cost!
If you fail and he does get a throw going your options depend on the throw. If it’s an ochio or a toss, you just lucked out because he gave you your space back! If it’s a hug or knee bash, get ready to use robot-like reflexes to react to what happens next.
After a knee bash, his best option is to jump forward HK. It will hit you from the front. If you block this he can knee bash you again and there’s nothing, other than reversal teleport/super, you can do to stop him. If you see him do this, your best bet is to walk forward and take the hit and try to counter-throw him. If he does anything else, just block it and improvise.
After a hug, his best option is also jump forward HK, but this one’s trickier. It’s random whether it will cross-up or not, so if you see this hold back and if it looks like he gets too deep before you block switch directions to try to block the cross-up. If you do block it, get ready for part 2. He can either throw, tick-throw, or combo you at this point. So, simply read his mind and figure out what to do next. If you’re lucky, you’ll block a combo and be given a very brief amount of time and space to mount a real escape.
While that covers the options that are technically the best, Honda has a lot of other options after the throw. And in fact, most Hondas won’t use some of those advanced strats. So, after any throw also be on the lookout for his other options. HHS and Butt-Slam are the most common follow-ups. HHS is pretty easy. Just block it low and then get ready to do something. A fireball feels natural here, but remember that fireballs are bad at this range. So, instead throw out a quick poke like far MP/MK, far crouching MP, or just wait and counter whatever he does next. If he butt slams, you can try to jump or slide out of the way, but be careful with slides. If he crosses you up, your input will be reveresed and you’ll do a kick instead of a slide and he’ll land on you. Often it’s best to just block the butt slam and then try to jump away or down-back LP/MK him.
Dealing with him up close - In the corner
Once he locks you down in the corner, get ready for a world of hurt. A smart Honda can lock you down with a string of almost-impossible to get out of moves that you simply must block over and over. And at any point during this, he might decide to throw you. The smart play here is to not panic! Don’t try to counter every move he does! You must wait and block patiently. The key is to recognize the spots where you can counter one of his moves, where you can try to throw him, and the rare times when you can and should teleport out. But be warned, go easy on the teleports here. Even when you get the move off, it often doesn’t help you much.
There’s generally two styles of Hondas in this situation. There are ones that will mostly lock you down with block chains that end in buttslam and will occasionally throw. For instance, they might jump whatever, cr.LK xx buttslam, cr.LK xx buttslam, cr.LK xx HHS, then buttslam, etc. And occasionally they’ll come in for a throw. The other type will mostly do a few moves and then go for throw. For instance, stand LP walk in throw or HHS, jump LK throw, or HHS walk in tick-throw, etc. Both types will mix it up a bit, but most players lean heavily towards one style or another. So, your first task should be to identify which style of player you’re up against.
Against the block chain style, you must get really good at knowing how to counter these moves and recognize when you have an opening to do so. Just because you have time to get a move out in between their moves, doesn’t always mean you have time to properly counter whatever they’re doing. This style of Honda is hoping that you’ll desperately throw out random moves that don’t work and get hit by their butt slam, HHS, etc. Don’t fall for this! While you will take a decent amount of damage against good players before you ever have a chance to stop them, it’s a lot less than actually getting hit and letting them reset the situation. So, just block for a bit. If you see a solid opening, take it. If you don’t, keep blocking. If you keep blocking long enough without finding a counter opportunity, they’ll eventually get bored/greedy and try to throw you. This is your other main opportunity to get out. So be on the lookout for it!
The throw happy style, is a little easier to deal with IMO. However, it requires that your throw or escape timing is very good. It’s also a little scarier, in the sense that one or two mistakes can end you with the quickness. But it’s more of a gamble for him. He’s basically giving you openings for free that you can use to turn the tables. My advice here is the same as any other throw situation. If he’s jumping from afar, learn when you can walk in to take the hit and throw him instead and when you’re too far and should just block. If you see a setup where he’ll throw you from max range, try to counter that with quick drills instead of your own throw. And if he gets right up against you and tries to tick-throw you on wake-up learn to counter throw on wake-up instead of blocking the tick and trying to counter his actual throw, since good Hondas will push themselves too far out for your counter throw to work.
Just to re-iterate, once you’re cornered it is extremely likely that you’re going to lose. You will take some damage for sure. But these tactics will at least give you a fighting chance of getting out alive.
Closing thoughts
Like I said, Honda is a tricky match. But once you get all of these tactics down, you can literally shut down almost anything he does…at least from afar. The trick in this match is in being on point and shutting him down consistently. It only takes a few screw-ups for him to take you down. The best way to get these tactics down is to find a good Honda and play him a LOT. Things like jabbing him out of super or using the MP swipe to hit him out of butt-slams requires a lot of practice to nail the timing and distance. So keep at this match and practice as much as you can.
On a side note, because this is such a finesse match, beware that playing online can make the match seem a lot worse than it really is. Any amount of lag can really affect your ability to consistently counter his attacks. For example, with no lag at 2~3/full screen I can cr.LP him out of super with 90+% consistency, rendering his super impotent. With a fair amount of lag, it’s 50/50 at best, allowing random supers to win matches. So, the point is that online is still a great way to practice against the many different styles of Honda you’ll run into. It’s still a great way to practice dealing with his moves. But don’t get too upset if you occasionally lose to random crap. Just take comfort in the fact that you know that wouldn’t work at a real tournament.
Well…hope that helps!
In Sim’s favor? Pffffftttt! :wgrin:
I agree with you. I think it’s slightly in Sims favor to even. I think you’ll agree that when we say even, we don’t mean every match runs down to the bitter end. One character either decidedly wins or doesn’t an even number of times over an entire set. And you are right, we’ve played thousands (if not tens of thousands) of Honda vs. Sim matches, and if one of us isn’t on it really shows. For it to be even, both players have to be at the pinnacle of their game.
Very nice writeup my ninja! :china:
I especially like…
It gives me insight into what’s going through your head when this situation arises. In other words, I’m sorry. 
I would give the same advice to all the Honda players. I’m really glad we spent so much time to learn this match.
Great post!
Yeah thanks SweetJV. I used Sirlin’s site because I wanted to go straight to the source i.e. Sirlin. Great post. Like SweetPoison, I really want to take my Sim to the next level and in order to do so, I really need to understand three key matchups for Sim: Honda, Chun, and Vega.
Thanks guys! I’m glad you liked the post. I had been meaning to make a comprehensive Honda post for a while. I’ve been fortunate enough to have played a bazillion games against Megaman, and a bunch with other great Hondas(Kuroppi, Ultra David, Mad Possum, Mr x64, etc.). He’s actually the character that I feel most versed in. It doesn’t make him my easiest match or anything, but I always feel like I know what I’m doing.
I’m a lot less solid on Chun and Vega. I’m working on those matches myself. Fatboy’s blog about Chun is a really good start for fighting her. And I know that he and Shirts and Rambo are all pretty good at the that match…and maybe the Vega match too? So, maybe they’ll chime in and add some more about those matches. If nobody posts anything by next weekend, I’ll try to post the bits I’ve figured out against them.
yeah I found out why Vega is such a bad matchup for Sim. I played Sharizord and all he did was methodically do the wall izuna drop so that I couldnt jab out, jump back or anything. The end of the claw was hitting me enough where I couldnt punish. He was so fast that once he landed he was doing it again. I couldnt get mad because his Vega was punishing everybody. He definitely knows how to play him but still didnt make my losses any better.
I will work on Vega later but I am still trying to figure out Honda, Chun, Balrog.
And thanks for the posts SJV. Unfortunately until I can do what you are writing in my execution your thoughts are just that…writings. But not complaining though because this guy came in a room playing with sim against a solid Honda and he was holding his own. I just have to put the pieces all together. Hopefully I will get there.
Sweet, those fights fights with my Sim versus your Claw didn’t help you at all?
I could hop onto Xbox Live again and play some Claw against you, he’s actually my second character after Sim, let me know when you’re free.