Agreed. As soon as people realize that Sim is so innocuous offensively, they can just sit back and chill in the corner. Balrog, Zangief, Sagat, etc can just hold down back for 60 seconds as soon as they get a slight lead, and there’s almost nothing Sim can do about it.
This is the consequence of having a character that’s completely defensively oriented like SFIV Sim. He kinda works when facing more traditional, linear SF archetypes like Honda, Ryu, Ken, Blanka or Guile and if and only if he is in a position to play defensively, thus forcing his opponent to rush him down. And even then one wrong guess or one mistimed poke and Sim is GGPO (Rufus, for example).
Sim’s tools in SFIV seem focused on Sim slowly killing the other guy while trying to get in: he has good AA; a great Super that can punish careless jump-ins and an amazing Ultra that works great to limit the other guy when he’s trying to get in or to create some very nice mixups after an untechable knockdown; it’s not so useful when the other guy is winning and trying to stay as far away from Dhalsim as possible.
His only potentially scary offensive option is IAT into BnB, ideally followed up by a Super. But this can only be used sparingly; it’s more like a parlor trick that rarely hits people who know the match-up.
And whenever a character deviates from the traditional, linear SF archetypes, that’s when Sim’s game crumbles: Against Viper, Fuerte, Seth or Gouken, Sim is suddenly powerless: he can’t zone, and he can’t pressure offensively. The only thing he can do is try to survive and hope the other guy fucks up.
Good posts by Devil Jin. Aside from a few highly situational uses, the Yoga and Mummy Drills are worthless. In fact, they must be one of the most worthless moves in Street Fighter IV. And I concur that the current engine is not exactly advantageous to Dhalsim’s playing style. Hence, he would have to receive some tremendous improvements to become a top tier character, but better throws and better drills are a good start if Capcom actually means better by “better”, and this is not just some marketing strategy to get Dhalsim players excited. He will be in pretty bad shape otherwise. Zone, make one mistake, get knocked down, and the round is pretty much over against the likes of C.Viper, Rufus, Boxer, Seth, Dudley, Ibuki, Guy, etc.
I also love how the developers’ argument is “well, we do know that Dhalsim has weaknesses that are crystal clear, but Iyo did this and that.” Seriously, as if Iyo’s abilities could be acquired by just any average Joe. The vast majority of US Dhalsim players will never become as good as Arturo, much less as good as someone who consistently plays (or used to play) the best competition available in the world.
I could rant forever, but my point is that Dhalsim needs some serious improvements, and I have my doubts that Capcom will deliver mostly because of all the focus on the new characters.
Yeah, I find it funny how they use Iyo’s win at a championship over a year and a half ago as a balancing criterion. I mean, if you watch that match today the Sagat he fought against looks awfully primitive because people learned to exploit Sagat’s bullshit and Kara gdlkeness later on.
I mean, I like working for my wins. I like a complex character that requires thought or knowledge to play. That’s why I picked Dhalsim in the first place (and that’s why I play Honda as my second, because playing Sim is so stressful and mentally taxing that I need to relax with a simple meat and potatoes character later Oh, and also against Viper. Fuck Viper :bgrin: ) It’s just that sometimes some of his drawbacks seem arbitrary or to stem from poor design choices and that’s frustrating. It’s like the developers gathered and said “oh, he’s Dhalsim. So he needs his drills and mummy. Everyone remembers those from SF2!!” “Yeah, but those were too good in that game, so lets make them useless in this one but keep them in for old times sake” “And remember how he could pressure people with meaty Yoga Flames? Let’s remove that because he’s tricky, oh so tricky!” “Yeah! Now lets go buff up Rufus!! Need MOAR damage on EX Snake Strike! Hey gusy I feel EX Messiah Kick needs even more invincibility!”
Oh well, I still love playing as Sim, even when I lose.
Final build wasn’t shown yet maybe please hopefully please god anything to get me to sleep
The key is how big of an effect this indirect damage buff is going to have. Every other buff means shit unless by better drills they mean good drills.
according to seth on IRC, better throw for sim means more range. how much more range…well, we will have to see? not like it matters much anyway considering sf4s throw system
And speaking of drills, if they were any good, Dhalsim could position himself just outside his opponent’s throw range (a la ST) and then bait throws and option select techs, which could be punished. Certainly, this strategy would never be as effective as it was in ST because of SFIV’s throw system, but it would be better than what he has now, which is absolutely nothing.
Dhalsim ought to have the ability to create some damn offense. It would come in handy against the likes of C.Viper and Abel, among many other characters who are virtually impossible to zone. Imagine locking down C.Viper with the drills ST-style. Take that you flying slut.
Although they aren’t the glory to behold they were in ST, they are really useful against projectile characters. They allow you post-projectile positioning options that slides and ports don’t.
To me, Sim’s biggest obstacle in terms how the producers view the game: the whole two reads and you win thing. As it is, Sim has to make reads constantly through out the match. His rewards for doing so is often just landing a poke or maintaining his zone; these are hardly things you only have to do twice to win. He is compensated by being able to build meter faster with a projectile game that is usually possible, but you’re still in the situation where–generally speaking–your opponent has more opportunities to fuck up and get away with it than you do.
Certain characters can turtle him out really stupidly too.
Overall though, I really enjoy his character design. He’s more fun to use, in my opinion at least, than Sim in any of the past SF titles.
As far as the changes go, really it’s hard to know what to think of any of it without solid info from the release version. As I view it, some subtle frame/hitbox changes that could be overlooked by even advanced users could change a lot of things for him. Damage and stun tweaks on his pokes could make a world of difference, especially in matchups against high stam characters.
Yeah as bad as the drills are offensively they still have a really great use for movement. Even if they do get some sort of improvement it wont matter UNLESS it recovers and stuns for enough time to link to mk. But that still won’t mean much because they’re so slow and would be easy to reversal
Can I just say it warms the cockles of my heart that this thread is getting more activity? Well I just did.
There have been some good posts in here. Some of them really helped me to put some things into perspective about Sim in SF4, and SSF4. You know, I never really thought of it that way, trying stay alive as Sim, rather than going into a match and winning it outright. It’s so true, though. Reading his shortcomings, and ideas on how Capcom rationalized his SF4 iteration is slowly making me mad haha… I’m gonna keep him close, though. I’ve put too much time into using him this go-around.
It’s nice to see activity in this thread, too. Dhalsim force unite. One day he’ll get his needed improvements. Honestly, though, a Sim capable of pressure offense in SF4? Shit is frightening to think about.
I just keep thinking of [media=youtube]bsCykWBcuDE"[/media] (ignoring the massively broken V-ISM mode) and it makes me sad to play him now. I still love his style and still think he’s competitive in the right hands, but damn if I didn’t wish for just a small amount of the insanity he could unleash in A3.
It’s funny because he’s got all (ok, most) of his A3 moves in SFIV… but the speed and priority are just light years apart.
I play HDR with a friend and he sometimes plays dhalsim.It seems you can only trade when trying to AA drills with normals.I don’t think it beaten one clean more than liek 3 times.It has good priority there.To bad thats not the case for SF4.
Oh yeah standing fierce range has been reduced this time im sure its the final build loL… its cool since dhalsim will kill sagat for free now with ultra 2 ( tiger kneed )
Please explain filipino: Why would instant air ultra kill sagat for free? And how much range are we talkning about on the fierce, and can you confirm, or unconfirm if dhalsim’s dmg was changed back to what it was in sf4? (It was buffed at one point, which I was led to believe was the final version)
you know that event hubs gets their news from here, right? like i could make up some bullshit, and if enough people supported it even though they knew it was untrue, event hubs would report it as fact
well about the fierce range its probably 1 or 2 steps shorter its not so much of a nerf if you ask me.
also you can air instant your ultra 2 on reaction to a tiger shot and thats 450 dmg ( full ultra )
drills - same speed but alot safer on hit/block i dont know the exact numbers maybe 0 or -2 frames coz i cant combo it into anything not even back + shorts
ex yoga fire - GODLIKE lol i like it alot its FASTER , Full screen , and bigger hitbox?? ( fireball is bigger visually )
Jump - sorta feels he lands faster if so sniper on hit could be safe in some instances.
im lazy to go to the seth forums
Seth’s teleport is ass has a lag now hella recovery
Why did they shorten st.fierce? Did they not want anything like the back throw to lp fire / st. fierce mixups? Seriously, this was a great tool for discouraging jumps after back throw (which could lead to iat mixups) and with the 1-2 step redux, I don’t think it’ll hit anymore after an lp fire.
Thanks FilipinoChamp for the info. TK Ultra 2 does sound pretty good.
Oh, and also against Viper. Fuck Viper 
:bgrin: ) It’s just that sometimes some of his drawbacks seem arbitrary or to stem from poor design choices and that’s frustrating. It’s like the developers gathered and said “oh, he’s Dhalsim. So he needs his drills and mummy. Everyone remembers those from SF2!!” “Yeah, but those were too good in that game, so lets make them useless in this one but keep them in for old times sake” “And remember how he could pressure people with meaty Yoga Flames? Let’s remove that because he’s tricky, oh so tricky!” “Yeah! Now lets go buff up Rufus!! Need MOAR damage on EX Snake Strike! Hey gusy I feel EX Messiah Kick needs even more invincibility!”