EX Hands only pushes him too far back if you keep pressing a button to get all hits the EX Hands has to offer. If you allow it to do the normal 4 hits you will be in range for one of the 3 normals. Well sorry, you can still do MK, Hands and c.MP Hands, but you get more stun and Damage with c.Fierce, s.Round House, or sweep(Plus hard knock down).
I sincerely hope they chance hk gekiro so that it hits everyone from TC2. That would be godlike.
i always wonder why gen is bottom tier, anybody else wanna comment on that ?
He’s not bottom tier in AE.
He’s still amongst the bottom isn’t he? But anyway I’ve been seeing a lot of talk about how awesome it’s going to be with HK Gekiro getting a hard knockdown on the last hit. Besides the fact that opponents cannot recover from the knockdown, what else makes it so awesome? Sadly we don’t get to land HK Gekiro that often.
Don’t use TC2 to start your combo, unless you know HK can be a follow up. Use s.HP, HK Gekiro as your punish. It actually does 221 DMG compared to 218 with the TC2, LK Gekiro.
You can also land HK Gekiro after Super. Let’s compare a few things:
s.Strong, TC2, Fierce Hands, Super, Sweep - 428 Damage / 386 Stun
s.Strong, TC2, Fierce Hands, Super, HK Gekiro - 459 Damage / 396 Stun
s.Strong, s.Forward, Fierce Hands, Super, Sweep - 428 Damage / 324 Stun
s.Strong, s.Forward, Fierce Hands, Super, HK Gekiro - 462 Damage / 336 Stun
Crane j.HP, Mantis TC2, Super, Sweep - 473 Damage / 440 Stun
Crane j.HP, Mantis TC2, Super, HK Gekiro - 507 Damage / 452 Stun
Crane j.HP, Mantis s.Strong, TC2, Super, Sweep - 473 Damage / 538
Crane j.HP, Mantis s.Strong, TC2, Super, HK Gekiro - 497 Damage / 547 Stun
I think the numbers speak for themselves both are a Hard knock down, that is a huge buff IMO.
Not to mention with HK gekiro we can probably set up a lot of Oga cross/ups and it allows us to find safejump setups to continue the pressure afterwards safely. A lot of possibilities are opened up, and ofcourse the meter gain bonus is pretty cool aswell.
As for Gens tier placement, I quite frankly do not care. I´ve played SF4 Gen since vanilla all the way to now and imo he is not a bottom 5 characters atleast, he just takes a lot of work (both executionwise, but even more so in the way you have to remember so much character specific things and you have to be good at footsies and super/ultra punishes). In my opinion Gen is better than Gouken, Dan, Hakan, Dudley, T.hawk and I personally feel he is actually also better than Rose and Fuerte (mainly because Fuerte needs to watch out with his splashes on block, we win air to air and up close/midrange and we can freely be mobile due to his AA nerfs). I also happen to think he goes even with quite a few characters due to his better normals and reliable bnb combos (target combos).
Just my 0,02 cents.
IMO I’d have to disagree with Rose, Gouken and Dudley. Though they aren’t much better than him. I don’t think Gen is better. I think they are 1 or a half of a tier above Gen. Rose only really lost her U2 invinc. And she can’t throw a Super after Soul Spark. Other than that she’s still a solid character. Gouken got huge buffs that made him a competing character. I’m not saying he’s amazing, but he’s def really good now. Dudley he was also given some better normals. He was given a new move and really no nerfs. The rest I will agree with you.
The characters I feel are below Gen are, Dan, Hakan and T.Hawk. The rest are either on par with gen or above him.
Gouken is still terrible, it is one of the few match/ups where Gen can go full offense and once he´s in gouken cannot do anything (unless you are being really predictable and he does that countermove, but empty jumpins make sure he will be scared of that aswell). Once you have him the corner all you have to do is keep him there with pokes and watch him die a slow death. He can never throw a airfireball if you have super/ultra and his EX divekick move gets beaten out by EX gekiro and you have enough time to see it coming if he tries to do it to get out of the corner or just randomly. Gen is too mobile for Gouken basically and if you´re in you´re in. Sure he hits like a truck, but the only way he does that is if you give him the oppertunity to do so by making a dumb mistake. I sincerely think its in gens favor. Also his backthrow is hilarious with the 1000000 frame tech window, so whenever I pressure a Gouken I make sure to crouch tech often.
In Dudleys case I feel that he has a lot of trouble against Gen because he simply has no footsies. He is either fullscreen away or right in your face (in which case you´re doing it wrong lol). We can outpoke him with ease and his s.hp (the one that makes him move forward a lot) is his main way to ´play footsies´ and get in but c.hk and c.mp beat it, also neutral jumps fuck Dudley up a lot when he does s.hp. I don´t really think he has a whole lot to get around our normals and because of that reason I feel Gen slightly beats him, oh and ofcourse his EX multiple punch move can be a little dangerous if he does that to get in but whatever you shouldn´t get hit by it honestly (unless he combos into it ofcourse).
As for Rose, again I feel our normals are better than hers and her momentum changer (U2) is pretty much void now. I don´t have many more reasons but this is just how I feel personally about her. She just doesn´t feel like a threath to gen in any way when I play a Rose. Ah I just remembered, her fireball recovery is slightly worse than other characters I remember so if spaced well gen has a much easier time jumping in on her with crane stance if she throws a fb. It´s pretty much a battle of the footsies, and her normals are inferior to ours but to make up for it she has fireballs and her drill move, so I suppose it is actually a pretty even fight come to think of it LOL
imho I disagree with Gouken. He sucks period. He got decent buffs, but unlike most characters, he always loses some of his tools whenever he gets new things. He doesn’t have a safe special on block except for palm FADC and hadou, but it isn’t fast and doesn’t have full invincibility, different from SRK. His Kongo is divided into 3 parts making it harder to counter stuffs, he lacks frame advantages on jabs and his overhead game is bad, his bnb cannot start from a low attack, and can only start either from a jump-in or a close medium attack for hit confirm. His flip is just an inferior version of Akuma’s due to the surprising number of multi-hit moves and armour breakers available in the game. He also doesn’t have a combo from outside of his cr.HP range because his new LP Palm’s range is just bad.
His hadou frame advantage is good, his dash is commendable, and his sweep frame is great, but once close, his defense without an EX may be worse than Gen, because his backdash is terrible, and he lacks invincible shit that hits even crouchers. Yet his combos start from close range. I think he is slightly worse than Gen in AE. Things will have to see post-2012.
My point is, Gen isn’t a terrible character. Just don’t compare him with others 
Oh and Mantis U2 buff might be better than expected, as long as you’re sure you can confirm that grey damage into a real one.
Rose’s f+HK after 2012 are going to give us a hard time combined with her cr.MP. I think Gen VS Rose match-up itself is even, but I think Rose is a slightly better character. And dat backdash.
Oh god you´re giving me some ideas to test oga cross/ups after landing a mantis U2…TO THE LAB
I would agree, while I was typing about Rose I actually realised they are a pretty even match, I do not necessarily feel one is better than the other.
I’ll post the setups I know in Shenanigans as this is not the thread to talk about oga cross-ups. Long story short, there’s no setup against tall characters like Seth.
The mantis u2 speed buff is nice and helps in reversals, but what would have been a better change would be more (grey) damage, and anti-air hitbox. On a positive note, I think that you can mantis u2 reversal if fei long’s 2nd rekka is blocked now, since its -8 at best. There are quite a few more moves that can be punished on block now, which is good.
It still does grey damage and that’s just silly in my opinion… what purpose does it serve?
mind fuck purposes
Don’t underestimate the power of 7f start-up.
Unlike Mantis U1 you can make the next jump-in to be an ambiguous cross-up. It’s also going to be the only Ultra that will be comboable from a ground combo a la EX hands (It’ll not be character specific. Either it is fast enough or even if the character is out of range you can still do st.HP or st.MK kara U2 to make it hit)
I’m sure the 7f start-up is great but I’m really quite put off by the grey damage. It kind of gives them ultra meter and a chance to recover and take little or no damage from the ultra. Anyway that 7f start-up buff is still a long time to wait, so right now it’s still pretty useless.
Yes, it is useless right now. I see Mantis U2’s start-up buff as quite big, but will have to see to make sure after 2012 patch kicks in.
We can kara ultras? Shows what little I know of frame data and the like. That’s truly a great thing to hear if it ends up being a non character specific change now. I knew the 2 frame speed buff was better than it sounded, but if it can be combo’d against everyone from EX hands! I’ll cross my fingers in hope, since that’d be about the only change I really wanted left.