Estoc is the stunlocking/frame trap/1v1 tool with dark sword being the crowd control/damage dealer. Too good in too many areas and all its missing is the high damage projectile from the ice rapier in ds2 rofl
I’ll still say that estoc is at least the absolute top tier and only sharing it with whatever broken straight sword is at top. Mainly because you pair it with said straight sword. I hear halberd is a competitive weapon though in pvp that has a fair matchup vs those two, perhaps i should do a run with it.
If by 1v1 you’re talking about PvP then both of those weapons lose to any weapon with hyper armor. Not for free, but definitely they don’t have the advantage.
PVE wise what it has vs the dark sword is fast as fuck recovery, better startup/range/recovery, overall better at stunlocking, similar damage and even more so on counter hit. Due to the recovery you’ll be able to act sooner from a 2 hit swing than you would with a dark sword, dark sword having much more sheer damage to other wise compete.
Estoc is much safer and consistent vs the more dangerous knights/humanoids with far more chances of counter hitting them with your poke before they even start up their attack while being at more of a frame advantage after your swings *the cool thing is that you often don’t even need to roll to be at a safe distance to not get punished by pve mobs retaliating, saves you stamina.
Estoc of course falls off a tad bit when there’s a lot of mobs to clear, you can single each one down safely but this is where you swap your straight sword/crowd control option. Estoc has a R2 sweep for those situations but no where near as good as straight sword R1s if the mobs have a fair amount of health. If we’re talking like a group of dogs/smaller but quick enemies like the midgets then estoc is godlike vs them.
Straight sword can still edge out through sheer damage output say with bleeds on top of great damage, killing high health enemies before they can really do much.
Also fuck whens a good greatsword like DS1 moonlight GS. Such a shame that it’s in the state that it’s in now, was one of the main reasons you’d even make a int build.
Yeah, Estoc is great, PvP OR PvE. I just can’t stand people pretending Estoc is like unbeatable top tier in PvP when there are weapons that have advantage over it. it’s fucking good. It probably is top tier, but so are a bunch of weapons with hyper armor
I don’t think it’s unbeatable but the advantages are just clear and it’s simply consistent. Hyper armoring through an estoc is a option but not guaranteed. Consistency is one of the things that separates top tiers from high tiers in a lot of games. By how much you’d have to look at a case by case basis.
I do think that greatswords need more damage though, ain’t right that you’d armor through something and spend your whole stamina bar to do something a straight sword does in half the amount. Either that or shit i’d gladly accept a estoc/straight sword damage nerf to be more in line. Estoc already has the old hidden crit modifier that does great damage on parries/backstab, and they already have consistent stun locking and great tracking. They don’t need amazing damage on top of it lol.
DS1 you had poise and heavy damage on a confirmed hit from a claymore, while something like a balder side sword didn’t even get anywhere near the amount of damage from just r1s alone, though the weapon had probably the best moveset of any weapon on top of amazing range.
Any opinions on the Irithyll Straight Sword? I found myself using it a lot due to its fast attack, targets multiple enemies, does good damage, and it inflicts frostbite, which I think is only good for PVP. I like its guard break special too.
Think it’s on the low end on the damage side for straight swords, but if you like the frostbite by all means use it. It’s still a straight sword so it’s great at the very least, and the frost visual is cool as fuck, the aesthetics alone is worth building around it. You can check the other straight swords too since they also have the guard break stance.
I don’t think there is really ANY bad straight sword at the moment. That weapon class is just too solid. I do think they need to be nerfed a bit or have great swords buffed. When comparing the two, there really is no reason to use GS over SS outside of aesthetics. The advantages SS over GS is too much. If you want to use a heavy weapon, greataxes or halberds are better.
I dunno if Estoc/straight swords have a disadvantage in PvP vs heavy weapond. On paper, the hyper armor wins against R1 spam, but it really comes down to the player knowledge and skill. I would think a smart player would know the limits of Estoc and won’t mindlessly mash R1, so the hyper armor of a heavy weapon matters less. PvP is a lot more nuanced, and no player worth their salt straight up mashes.
Anyways, MECHANICAL NEWS. Someone found out that in terms of PvE, physical defense stat only reduces PURE physical damage, and the only enemies that do pure physical damage are… SLUGS. Haha. All other enemies use strike, fire, slash, etc. damage types, making those stats way more important for PvE. For the most part, Fashionsouls matters more than anything else in PvE unless you need certain resistences for a boss. In terms of PvP, physical defense stat is still important because player attacks still do physical damage regardless of damage type, IIRC (higher slash resist will still help vs slash attacks though). That’s good news for those that enjoy PvP, since it makes Vitality still a useful stat.
UGS, CGS, and Halberds(on some moves) can all use their hyper armor easily against Estoc.
Like, I feel like you guys don’t understand how powerful hyper armor is in this game when EVERY weapon, even the biggest, gets guaranteed R1 R1 combos. You only need one trade to decimate their lifebar, and that trade is very, very easy to get.
I mostly use Carthus Greatsword as far as large weapons go and Estoc/Rapier, SS, Katana users are NEVER a big problem. Now, if they’re good, it can totally be an even match, but it is not hard at all to use hyper armor to counter those weapons unless they are extremely patient, but it’s difficult to do that when the benefits of those weapons are pressure, and the playstyle most suited for large weapons is already patience, and larger weapons get much larger rewards for that patience.
It doesn’t take mashing, it only takes one single R1. I’ve been on both ends of this match up. If they read your R1 and time it to your poke, which is not hard, you will lose the trade magnificently while NOT even having time to roll away from your SINGLE R1. You can only preemptively R1. If you do it at the same time even you’ll lose the trade. And they only need to trade with you twice
If you’re west coast by chance I can get some matches started after overwatch beta is done in like a week. Any farther and it’ll probably be pretty spotty since i’m from hawaii. Probably would play anyways.
Rocked estoc since ds1. Did balders/estoc in ds1 and dual estocs / estoc + ice rapier in ds2 got invalidated by full havels
As someone who spends more time pvping than actually progress thru the game , this is what i will say about the weapons mentioned here previously…
The dark sword.
I have yet to run into someone who isn’t R1 spamming with dark sword. IDK if you people remember , but the basic
premise of competent parrying in DS1 was to block the first hit and parry the second. In other words…I have fun VS dark sword wielders.
I’m aware of how devastating the R1 spam can be though. I remember running into a guy who did like 10 r1 swings consecutively.
facking mlg nubs
The piercing thrust weapons (rapiers).
These people seem to know how to make use of their range better than lets say someone using a longsword/straightsword
and you will get punished if you make mistakes , being in recovery frames. People using these weapons are quick to throw out
pokes since they feel it’s very safe for them to do so , and compared to most other weapons they are right about that… however…
When you are actually within proximity , and lets say you are facing someone that is using…a…lets say…Great Machete?
If the one with the great machete throws out a R1/R2 before the player with the rapier , the trade will be heavily in the machete’s favor.
I’m pretty much repeating everything Gasa just said.
A weapon that really bothers me is the farron greatsword with it’s facking “dancing on the ground like a retard” skill.
like…bro… what are you even doing? i’m trying to fight u. i get so annoyed because i haven’t found any ways at all to punish it.
when in doubt… dance on the ground like a faaacking retard !!! truly the new MLG
Also… Owatt… I think you are cool and all , but as a fan of heavy clunky weapons i’m gonna have to root for Gasa :glasses:
I love that weapon, but all the PVP I did with it so far was 4 V 1 and I lost every time. I just got plus yesterday and end game is not a great place to learn apparently. But I need tongues for my waifu, haha!
I find L1/LB spam on the farron great sword is highly punishable. People freak out when you do it in closed spaces, but I’ve had people with shields block the knife and then back stab me during the spinning sweep. the break dancing is very predictable, and if not used right can lead to some very easy critical attacks. I typically use all the right shoulder buttons and throw “that” attack out there when I need to. also…
-Can’t be buffed.
-Stamina hungry. Srsly, almost 40 endurance and I can just barely do three swings and a single safety roll.
But yea, the spin is the least safe option when used offensively. if there’s a way to link up together, I can spar you a few rounds if you’d like to practice. wink
I’ve gotten to rank 3 in Rosaria’s Fingers and the Mound Makers solely with the Onikiri & Ubadachi. It seriously might be my favorite weapon in the game.
Does anyone else do this in dark souls in general. Like if i lose to a boss too much. I just go barebones. Like in dark souls 3, i would just not ember, unequip all my armor, and fight until i fucking won. I did it in dark souls 1 too. Its like i would force myself to win by my skill (plus extra health and obviously a strong weapon), not anything else. No embers, no resins, no armor.
Its probably why i dont think the series is super difficult, but also its because of playing hack n slash games for over a decade. lol. But dark souls bosses arent usually the hardest part of the game. But regardless, yeah, i usually will punish myself until i get good.
This is going to sound like bragging, but very few bosses in any of these games kill me more than like 3-4 times and I can think of several I killed first time. To me they aren’t the real challenge of these games. I’m much more tense when I’m in a new area and have no idea where to go with like 2 estus left and not sure where the next bonefire is. Bosses are just cool encounters to cap off tough levels.
That’s not to say I have never had issues with a boss in a Souls game. O&S took me probably 7-10 tries my first time through DS1 and some of you may remember the…fun I had trying to kill Defiled Amygdala in the Bloodborne thread. But even that one felt like artificial difficulty because Amygdala is super easy otherwise.