Dance with the Claw: Vega Match-up Guide/Discussion

Sak&Joz:

I still have to think about the Sagat MU regarding the loop.

But as far as Zangief is concerned, I still cannot really agree to a 5:5 because I do not see the point why Zangief would have a really hard time to get in on Vega. He has pokes too, you know? I’ve played a Zangief who really knew his shit. He used his pokes and buffered EX Green Hand into them. This is very important. Cause I’m getting the feeling you guys never fight good Giefs. He knew the perfect timing of crouching jab (that move is so good), st.mp and that crouching move. I believe it’s rh? Anyways, his poking game was just like it should be, and believe it or not, some of Zangiefs pokes beat Vegas. If he manages to hit our trade with one of yours, a happy EX Green Hand will catch you and you’ll be seeing dust.

Then there’s the scare factor. He managed to SPD me out of my st.mk. 5 times. All losses. A lot of times he whiffed and I was able to punish, but that didn’t too much to him. What I’m trying to say is that he can take so many risks that don’t do shit to him but mean at least 60% of your life for you. Trying to predict your pokes and throwing out a random lariat. What if he hits you with it? 80/20 50% of your life gone. What if he doesn’t? A pathetic slide or EX Walldive. Why would that stop him from doing what he wants? What I’m trying to say is: You can’t force your game on him but he can force yours on you.

Those random grabs or lariats let you be cautious on when you poke. It’s a scare factor. This is when he’ll start walking in and out of your poke range. He can do nothing, or simply walk to you to a range where you would have to do something to keep him away, then follow you with green hand/f.rh if you’re trying to back off -> SPD. Or he may empty jump. Or he may lariat.
Zangief has a lot of tricks. Empty jump into EX SPD, whiff Green Hand/f.rh to gain ground. Your standing hard kick will hit him out of the air if he jumps normally. If he does an empty jump, it will whiff, and you’re gonna get hugged. And that was the match for you. Also, like I said, his buffer moves give you a hard time.
Between short hopping and switching jumping normals he can keep you guessing all the time and at one point, he is going to get you. This is really no match that you can play all “pokey-dokey-midscreen-and-if-he-jumps-ima-aa-him” against smart Giefs.
You have to play perfect. Know when you’re allowed to back off and when you’re not. If you don’t, you’re gonna lose, especially because of all those invincibility moves he has.
And let me tell you one thing. I wrote that it’s a 80/20 chance, but in reality against a good Gief, once he gets you in the range he wants you to be, you’re not gonna get out.

^^ This.

But to be fair, the poking battle should be over soon. If you guess right a couple of times, it’s a matter of sitting on the life lead by running away like mad, no? Like in, never ever attack again if it’s not to punish a mistake, and go for the time win. Gief can do well against Vega’s pokes, but has a hard time getting in if you are just running, and in that position your only minigame should be staying away from corners.

Still something like 6-4 for me. It’s 5-5 minus the stolen, one-mistake-insta-lose matches.

And by the way, Cammy 7-3, really?? Never felt that bad… I would like to hear Sasaki and Jozhear’s comments on this one. Could you guys point out any subtleties that might be currently flying over my head?

Against most good players I will have troubles. In particular though is the Honda match up. Yesterday I went 1-4 versus my friend’s Honda, some close rounds, others were landslides. I didn’t get around to testing it but to punish his head but I walked slightly and used st.mk, he was surprised so I assume that is a legitimate reversal against that attack?

My strategy was I often had to run away a lot in this match to get the upper hand. It was working for the best part but I made too many mistakes or was too aggressive at times.

well in the Zangief matchup, if he ever takes a gamble trying to use his lariat / grab mixup on you, and you guess right, you should be backdashing / KKK flipping / Jumping out anyway so it’s that much harder for him to get the drop on you again.

Zangief can poke, yes, but if you use c. mp at COUNTER HIT range (not max range) you will most likely win any poking battle (he doesn’t have a fast low poke that can hang with c. mp) and if he jumps you have the buffer space you need to backdash again and reset the situation, to wait for a moment to move to the otherside of the screen (if you’re at that part of the arena). The biggest threat in this matchup is simply if he has you cornered. At mid screen, etc., he has to gamble with the lariat / SPD mixup early because if you’re playing smart, you won’t be using any normals when he’s that close to you, but either blocking, jumping out, or KKK flipping / backdashing. The normals are a bigger threat (like st. strong and st. roundhouse) that punish jump outs and ensure that Zangief is going to be able to keep walking into you.

Zangief has a lot of tricks but all they are is tricks, like any other character. I don’t think they specifically factor into this matchup like they would any other. You have just as many tricks to use on him (ie, Jump out fierce; beats everything he does on wakeup, literally everything, except for blocking high, though it is punishable on block by EX Green hand.)

Which brings me to my next point. The only thing you really have to look out for mid screen if you’re at coutner hit range (beating all his pokes) and preventing being jumped in on (less likely to get grabbed) is EX Green Hand. Obviously any Zangief is going to fish for this as much as he can as it’s quite a massive return for, what, like a 260 damage punish from Vega? At most? That’s why you use EX RCF. It beats EX Green hand clean, and is definitely something you guys should think about integrating into your Zangief matchup. Honestly for this matchup the only reason I’d use meter is for EX FBA and the EX RCF. EX ST is kind of a waste as it’s more for stun than anything (this also doesn’t succesffuly beat EX Green Hand, cause like EX RCF they’re projectile invincible but ST is way less meaty and doesn’t beat EX GH’s invincibility) and it’s pretty much impossible to stun Zangief as Vega, especially if you’re playing the matchup the way you should be.

Then again, Sasaki, you may have a point. Like any fight vs Zangief the one thing you always can count on is if he’s close to you, you’re probably not going to get away easily. I’ve never fought a Zangief who option selected so it’s normally not very hard to get out. But just look at the JPNS match videos. They always play a mid screen game with very little footsies as quite simply, they need to cut down on giving Zangief any openings. Most of the less experience Zangief players will constantly try to move forward and smash their way in, and while you say he can force his game on you, you can easily go tit for tat countering him Vega style until he tries to be more meticulous. If he is overly aggressive and forces you to guess on a lot of the ways you’re trying to prevent him getting in then you can always, rest assured, back dash / EX FBA your way out of there to reset the situation. You just need to play as safe as humanly possible, which means less is more, and you need to be creative, to force him to waste meter and to have him make the wrong choices on your wake up.

As for Cammy:

I say this is a 7-3 cause essentially, if you’re in the corner, it’s impossible to get away. Meaty cannon strike (airborne) every time in your wakeup into whatever she wants, really. If you try to throw tech early, it’s c. jab, c. short, c. jab spiral for another knockdown, reset. If you expect that string, you need to react to the throw, or, reset. Or she’ll just wop you with a cannon spike, EX cancel, another one for massive damage and stun. Basically in the corner… it’s not even about “guessing right”, it’s just a fact that she is an expert at pinning people down in the corner, and Vega is the worst at freeing himself up. There’s pretty much no openings. And by pretty much, I mean there is none… your best bet is to get the throw tech right, and ST immediately to get her off. But by that point, if they get comfortable with you using your reversal at that point, she’ll just punish you with something absolutely massive, cause she’s cammy, and you’re boned again.

I remember someone said this matchup was a 7-3 for Vega. I’ll refrain from explaining just how stupid I think that is, and even then, before I played Cammy’s, I knew it was not that simple.

At mid screen, spiral arrow forces you to be incredibly meticulous. You really can’t slip and slide around like you can with other matches because this move will probably end up tripping you up anyway. Focusing, although cammy is “focus bait”, is usually not a good idea, as if you’re up close she’ll just throw out her c. mk like she normally would, see you’re focusing, and cancel into the arrow. If you get hit by one spiral arrow you’re pretty much Cammy bait, she’ll start slamming int oyou with the strike (there is literally no reason why she would not do this every single time) and forcing you to be her bitch, basically. You can’t really outpoke her because of spiral arrow, cause if it trades she’ll press the advantage in the time you’re down and close in on you, and the corner. Her pokes are pretty good too, (st. rh, st. mk, c. mk). Hooligan throw and spin knuckle aren’t really a factor, as you can beat hooligan with an air grab / air to air pretty easy (don’t jump out though) and spin knuckle is… well. spin knuckle.

And on wakeup, all she needs to have is some meter and she’s not really going to be afraid of using cannon spike. You CAN kkk flip to avoid it, but she could easily just react and spiral arrow you if she didn’t spike. In addition, the vortex does not really work on Cammy I’ve noticed, partly because Cannon spike doesn’t hit vertically like an SRK or TU, but kind of outward at her body. All she needs to do is auto correct and it tracks you down, so to speak. So you end up having to use the izuna vortex the same way against Zangief; either gamble, go in for the izuna, or if you expect a spike, swerve out and punish with something else. Though, if you swerve out and she didn’t spike… spiral arrow. She’s quick, and Vega’s quick, which serves him greatly in most matchups, but it don’t mean shit in this one. It’s so easy for her to catch you and when she does you’re royally fucked. If she has meter on offense she’ll FADC her spiral arrows and keep the pressure coming and if she doesn’t she’ll make you guess wrong by going over pokes / throw attempts with airborne strike. The reaosn I say this matchup is so bad is because there’s nothing I can think of that’s safe; nothing that’s abusable, nothing that’s strong, nothing that’s a direct counter. You pretty much gamble on everything you do in this matchup and are greeted with huge damage from Cammy while she doesn’t realy have to take many risks at all. Ask Cannon Spook (XBL) for a set and you’ll see exactly what I’m talking about. The most success I had with this matchup was baiting the spiral arrows, mid screen when I could, and punishing with some form of EX FBA combo. I never cornered her (which as anyone who’s played me knows is my strongest asset).

If Honda uses any head torpedo other than Jab version, I remember punishing it with… walk forward > st. Fierce

On another note: I’ll start working on writeups for every matchup tonight. I’ll warn you guys that outside of Gouken, Seth, Gen (I beat yeb the other day boast boast) and Cammy I don’t know much about the console characters. But I am 100% confident in my matchup knowledge of every arcade character, especially Vega, Sagat, Balrog, Ryu (I finally figured this one out), and I am a personal expert of Abel (helps when your brother mains him). I will admit that I am not too learned on Chun and Ken, so if people want to help me out on those ones I’d appreciate it greatly.

Just punish with the sweep. Much better return knocking someone down then 110 damage. You don’t have to walk forward either.

couple more points, wall dives are never safe against Cammy. Between cannon spike’s crazy priority at the top of its arc, spiral arrow, and her ultra, you need to be very careful especially since an aborted wall dive is a free no meter ultra setup for Cammy… she can either do raw ultra or juggle it off a spiral arrow in case you are far away. She has crappy jump ins which helps Vega somewhat … not really because of her dives … but her normals are excellent air to airs. She has a lot of a shoto’s strong points (a shoryu, safe hit confirm based offense), and a lot of Rufus’s strong points (pressure game) plus very high damage output, crazy mobility and only slightly less health than normal. There is no way the match up could be anything but 7-3 IMO

You simply can’t backdash and get out all the time. This is just what Gief wants you to do, but I’m afraid people who haven’t played decent ones don’t get this. This is exactly how he pushes you in the corner and gains field over you. It’s a strategy. You can’t backdash/get out, then walldive to the other screen all the time. That shit is not going to fly against players who know the matchup. More importantly, every time you walldive you’re running the risk that he catches you on the way. I’ve met Giefs who could consistently do this, so I would have to use it sparingly at which point it was easier for them to walk me into the corner. You’re walldiving against the back wall? Have you ever wondered why Giefs sometimes stand there jabbing? Walldiving against the front wall? Needless to say that this can be punished many ways.
And I don’t even think about triangle jumping anymore, haha.
Besides, Gief has tools to stop backdashing and backjumping. f.rh and green hand are made for this.

… at which point you’ll find yourself in the corner where you can’t play footsies anymore. And he’ll catch you.

No, as I said before, you can’t backdash his jumps all the time as you can’t anti air him all the time. He is going to catch you. For example, he’ll do a short hop into f.rh or green hand. This is really no abusable strategy, especially since he’ll walk you into the corner.

Yeah, jump out fierce. And that’s about all you have. Maybe crossup EX Sky High. The difference between a Zangief trick and a Vega trick is, that once blocked once, Vega is going to eat the dust f’real. Zangiefs tricks to get in on someone are numerous and can be mixed up really well without him running a great risk, even if he gets punished. That’s the difference. Low risk/high reward and high risk/low reward. This is the logic that dominates this matchup all the time. That’s why it’s stupid.

Ah, really? RCF? Isn’t this the one and only move that can be SPD’d at the recovery on block and puts you at a really bad range against Gief? Aren’t you literally gambling at that range?

Yeah, and this is probably very true. Less is more in this matchup, really. I made that experience too. But you really need to realize that Zangief is no slouch in this MU, which makes it definitely not 5:5.
Especially to the japanese. Believe me, I once thought the exact same way as you.

I still need to test what works against cr.mp. If by any chance a cancellable normal can beat it, it’s gonna look pretty bad for us.

EDIT: Changed my av finally LOL

Isn’t there a logic hole in this? Well then, I’ll just backdash all the time. What are you going to do about it? Chances of me getting out are too high to call this a reliable strategy. This is by far reliable. Every time you attempt a meaty Izuna I will backdash, get hit by that ridiculously low damage claw slash (which isn’t even guaranteed) , and mix up my wakeups.
Tech late, and if I see you’re going to attempt any corpsehop shenanigans and I have 2 meters, I’m going for the tiger uppercut, fadc. I’m out, and then YOU’LL be the one who has to guess. Don’t have any meter? Just block the shenanigans. Or TU anyway to scare. You’re not doing anything on my wakeup? Well then, I’m out anyways.
Tech early next time and you’ll have to guess between Izuna or not Izuna, because should you attempt one because you think I tech early, but I tech late, it’s gonna whiff. And I’m either gonna punish you on your recovery or get out.

So, where is the bigtime abusement in this? And how is this as consistent as to making one matchup point of difference? Plz elaborate.

If you izuna properly, Sagat will probably not even be able to back dash or will get a forward dash instead… which doesn’t help him at all
If Sagat techs after a claw slash obviously you can’t do anything because of tiger uppercut. There is only one time you can fast stand so I’m really not sure what you are talking about there.

I tried this at the arcade and couldn’t sweep punish Heavy Headbutt, I suppose the timing is quite strict? Do you have any tips for that match up Jozhear?

Probably, probably. Someone needs to test this thoroughly, for the fuck of it :'D
What I mean is, when I backdash and you get the claw slash, I can either quick stand or not. Now, you as a player can think: “Okay, I bet he’s gonna quick stand, so I’m immediately going to do another Izuna drop.” If you guess right, you can throw me again (I will backdash out again to escape your throw). However, if you guess wrong and I do NOT tech, your Izuna will whiff. And I’ll get out. And should there still be recovery on your whiffed Izuna when I’m on my feet, you probably lost the round right there.
What’s even more amazing about this is, that you’ll be the one who has to guess, but I’m to one who doesn’t. Because as soon as I see you going to the wall after the claw slash, I will not tech my wakeup to make you whiff your Izuna. If you’re not immediately flying to the wall after you slashed me, it means you won’t go for the Izuna on my tech, and I’ll simply tech my wakeup.

EDIT: Also, is it really possible to do that airtight grab on the first frames standing when you’re not in the corner?
And why would I TU if I know it’s not gonna work most of the time? I’ll rather backdash all the time and wait for you to miss your tight frame window you have to hit in order to catch me standing on the first frame.

EDIT2: I guess I’ll test this out myself tonight, to solve the mystery of wakeup Izunas once and for all.

apparently headbutts are -9, -13, -16, and -8, for jab, strong, fierce, and EX respectively. Sweep starts up in 8 like fierce… but yet I distinctly recall jab headbutts not being punishable…? Strange. I’m going to have to test this.

It sucks that the SRK wiki is gone. Now I’m forced to resort to eventhubs and already things are fishy.

anyway I realize I said I would start posting last night… but actually, do you guys want me to write about someone specific first? cause I was gonna start from the top, w/ fei long, but I’m not great with that one so I’ll probably start elsewhere.

^I have the prima guide, so I can get frame data for you if needed.

About Zangief corner pressure escapes and AA, though. I had the chance to fight a very good Zangief in a stable match. As in, a Zangief who actually pokes well while moving forward and actually tries to catch your footsie st. round-house with jab spd. The proper Zangief for a proper match-up, basically. I can’t say much about getting out of corner pressure when he’s smothering you, since I never got into that situation, but I found that the dash under and crouching strong -> FBA to the opposite wall worked really well for escaping possible corner situations(not even reversal lariats were catching me on those). So, you had Zangief chasing Vega across the screen about 3 times a round, and punishment for the empty green hands/ st round-houses to cover distance. For the unsure AA instances, it was probably one back dash and a forward walk to regain distance, or a backwards walk out of jab spd range (which he knew ofc, so I could actually bait jab spds occasionally during footsies ;D).

Edit
^Start with Viper, plox. I’ve never fought a good Viper while using Vega before so I only have an idea of how that MU goes (fought a few good ones when I was training with Honda and Ken, though).

Edit 2
Don’t use EX RCF in that match-up. Seriously, you’re better off throwing Gief after blocking EX Green Hand. Jab spd rapes EX RCF since you can be throw before you actually touch the opponent, plus he may be able to punish during/after the attack (need to test). And ofc, EX Double German Suplex(?) rapes it too,while giving Gief that added damage and great positioning.

Yeah, like I said. Doesn’t sound too smart to use RCF here. Unless you have discovered some kind of other advantage of it.

But sure. The more info we get together, the better. I’m about to paste the whole matchup discussion here into the main post, same with your writeups (of course, only if you allow me to). We gotta finally “mold” these subforums into shape.

Blankas are My Kryptonite. They Get On My Nerves To No End!

C. Viper - 6-4

This is an interesting matchup. C. Viper is a powerful rushdown character, with nearly endless tricks and ultra set ups up her sleeve, as well as a strong air game and devastating mix ups.

This is a matchup that I play rather defensively. That’s to be expected as C. Viper is a potent offensive character up close, but like some other rushdown characters, she needs to take risks at a distance in order to get in. With that said, a lot of your defense should consist of neutral jumps in anticipation of BK set ups and plenty of c. strong and st. rh in order to control the ground. As far as the ground is concerned, her footsies aren’t great and are quite slow for the most part, but her c. mk is pretty decent and has some good range, so up close be a little more aggressive with your pokes, at slightly outside the range of her c. mk (it’s about the max distance of c. mp) but not too aggressive so as to be countered by instant air BK or fierce TK. Barcelona is, for once, not that bad of an idea, but if you make a fake too deliberate, I’m pretty sure a good C. Viper could nail you with an EX TK, or a quick BK. As far as Izuna mixups go, she is one of the most susceptible characters. EX BK gets beat clean, and you can easily beat a fierce TK. Her backdash is decent enough, but like in most matchups it needs to be extremely well timed or else she’ll get claw slashed. She can use EX Seismo as an invincibility buffer to avoid your barcelona, without you getting hit as well. It pretty much resets the situation and allows you to set up your defensive game once again.

When you’re up close, make sure you conceal your jump ins as you best you can. Aside from trying to c. mk you, there’s not much reason for Viper to be doing anything but holding her ground for the time being, waiting for a jump in to anti-air or trying to work her way in with a cross up BK. If you try to get offense going by launching a j. hp into her, she’ll just hit you with the anti-air TK and something worse afterwards. Safe jumps work great on her but beware of the EX Seismo which will have your jump in whiff, but might punish your landing if you’re not paying attention. Stick to a lot of kara mixups instead of cosmic heel shenanigans, as cosmic heel from nearly any range doesn’t really beat anything she’s likely to do. The kara throw will beat her fierce TK as it’s not invulnerable to grabs, but if you try to cosmic heel at full screen for some mobility, you’re likely to eat a burning kick, and up close, you’re that much more likely to eat a fierce TK. You should save the cosmic heels strictly for punishing purposes, and leave the more “bare-bones” part of your footsie game (ie the c. mp and st. rh) for pressure, and defense, from mid range.

This is one matchup where your backdash isn’t a good idea in a lot of situations. BK has a lot of active frames and moves a considerable distance forward with its huge hitbox, so pretty much any time she does a BK and you try to avoid with a backdash you’ll get punished hard. For the most part, you just need to sit tight and anticipate the grab, and then work your way out with an EX FBA or EX ST after the throw tech. Nothing will really beat BK as far as anti-air is concerned, so often you need to prioritize meeting her in the air with air grab, j su rh, and triangle jump strong and forward. Make sure you do this without A) Making yourself vulnerable to fierce TK, and B) giving up distance easily by neutral jumping too often. She can’t really pressure you from the ground if she hasn’t already jumped in on you first, but if you give her the opportunity to FADC a thunder knuckle or simply cancel into one to gain some ground then you’re in a worst position then if you were just more patient and played more of a waiting game. Use your neutral jumps outside your max poke range, as fierce TK isn’t likely to hit you there, but make sure, unless you’re safe jumping, not to neutral jump any closer than that.

Her pressure game heavily relies on cornering you. This is why it’s important to defend yourself in the air against her burning kick set ups and not to let her have freedom on the ground to instant-air BK cross up you. Every time you get hit with a BK you fly a considerable distance backward. With the corner comes ultra set ups as well, so you need to be smart and play a really tight mid-screen game in this matchup. Once she has you cornered, she’ll mix you up with her BKs to beat baited throw techs, or beat poke attempts with that and fierce TK, or simply grab you to set up an ambiguous j. hk cross up into more pressure. Her overhead can also be a problem as it goes over a lot of low attacks and moves her forward. Man the fort on offense and don’t give her the reason to hit you with the Fierce TK or overhead. She’ll cancel into mp or jp TK off of c. mk, but, like a lot of Viper’s I’ve noticed, she’ll try to do another one afterwards. Don’t be fooled. TK is -1 on MP block, or -2 on JP block. Her c. mk is 7 frames, If you expect this kind of continuation in her pressure, just do an easy c. mp into EX FBA combo. You simply have the advantage in that regard. Like I said, most of the time, you’ll get punished for backdashing, so hold the fort until you have an opening and simply get away. She can’t keep you pinned down as well as Abel, and relies more heavily on a return that nets her an ultra combo, so she’s more “swing and a miss”. The biggest threat is her setting up ambiguous burning kick cross ups, in which case you simply have to learn what is going to be a cross up and what isn’t. But playing the mid screen defensive game is the most important part of this matchup, as if she doesn’t have you in the corner, she’s a little suffocated. I say this matchup is 6-4 because she can turn the match around in one huge combo if you’re not careful, whereas like other matchups, you rely on more of a hit, bide your time, hit, etc.

EDIT: One more thing I forgot. When she wants to mix up with her throws, she will pressure you with her close light kick. My brother and I were discussing this, as it’s a pretty weird looking move, it kind of moves her backward when she does it, so she looks a lot further away than she actually is. She can do two of them in a row and then throw without any movement at all, so just be aware that she’s closer than she seems is she starts trying to pressure you with that.

Things to remember:
Fierce TK is vulnerable to grabs
Cosmic Heel and backdashing are not good fallback options in this matchup
Stay at midscreen, neutral jump outside of fierce TK range to stop BK’s
Learn what’s a cross up and what isn’t with regard to BK’s and j. hk’s
Kara mixups instead of slide / cosmic heel gambles
Izuna vortex works well
Wait it out on defense, look for a way out, and be smart with throw teching

Who’s next? The Narcissist, want me to do a Blanka write up? People are still having trouble with Ryu so I could always get that one ready too.

I’d love for you to do a write-up on Ryu.

Chun Li. I’ve recently been beaten several times by less than stellar Chun players…they seem to have got a lot better at this match up…

I find Chun-Li, Boxer and Blanka to be the toughest matches for Vega. The rest are pretty much doable and only have a slight advantage if any.