IMO
Fei Long 6 - 4
Cammy - 7 - 3
Akuma 6 - 4
Gouken 5 - 5
Dhalsim 5 - 5
Blanka 6.5 - 3.5
Chun Li - 6.5 - 3.5
Ryu - 6 - 4
E. Honda 6 - 4
Zangief 5 - 5
Guile 6 - 4
Ken 6.5 - 3.5
Bison 5.5 - 4.5
Sagat 6 - 4
Balrog 6.5 - 3.5
Abel 6.5 - 3.5
C. Viper 6 - 4
Rufus 7 - 3
Fuerte 5 - 5
Sakura 5 - 5
Rose 5 - 5
Dan 5 - 5
Gen 6 - 4
I’ll start posting write ups as the days go on
Looking forward to your opinion on the Sagat match-up. 
I don’t agree with these matchups: Zangief, Sagat, Sakura.
First two are obviously worse because of DMG/(Ultra) HP differences and comeback-factors. You know it, the usual stuff. Vega is high risk/low reward, those characters are extremely low risk/high reward. That’s why Zangief:Vega will never ever be 5:5 and Sagat:Vega will never ever be 6:4.
Sakura can be best described if you compare her to Fuerte. Fuerte is 5:5 because he deals little damage and takes a lot. That basically means Vega’s bad comeback factor is slightly negated, which makes this even. Now think about Sakura. Sakura has blockstrings similiar to Sagat that can keep you at bay forever. Plus, she deals way more damage with her mixups. BUT her health revolves around the same points as Elf. That’s why this MU is 6:4.
I really don’t know about Cammy. On the one hand, it really seems as though she can get in much easier than Rufus, on the other hand your reward rises against her because of her bad HP… Don’t know what to think about this one.
I have to agree with him on Sagat (Zangief is 6:4, imo). IMO, it’s more about Vega dominating Sagat in the mobility area, which makes his footsie game stronger, having answers for his safer options (e.g. properly spaced high tiger shot loses to max range slide; need to check this >_>), completely removing Sagat’s fireball game, a strong part of Sagat’s defense, once Vega has ultra and being more dominant in air-to-air situations, since Sagat’s jump air-to-air options are pretty bad outside of forward-jump strong. Vega’s in trouble once Sagat gets in (but that’s true against anybody with good close range options) but if you can build lvl 1 ultra as soon as possible, hold Sagat between mid-to-long range, hang on to EX stock as a second long range option and just be smart and not jump into TU/ high damage normals, you have the match.
I’m afraid it’s not that simple. People tend to forget that he can control the field even better than Ryu.
Max range slide is not going to do much against this I’m afraid. He doesn’t have to shoot high tiger shots to keep you out, his kara specials can do the job. Also, how does Vega nullify his fireball game when he doesn’t even nullify Ryu’s? What are you going to do against low tiger shots? Jump? Have your EX sky high blocked, then eat a kara TU? More importantly, what are you going to do against smart kara shots? Sagat can be anywhere on the screen if he wants to.
Until you have Ultra you can’t even take the match back anymore. At that point, he simply doesn’t have to shoot any tiger shots anymore. Chances are that until you get into footsie range, you already have 1/2 of your life gone. But once you get into that range, what are you going to do? St.mk beats everything that isn’t a slide, jump normal or special. Tiger knee is safe on block and can put you into an endless blockstring if you don’t watch out. Getting too close can also result in a blockstring, which is very bad for Vega.
Also, why would Sagat have to use anything besides j.mp in the air if that beats most of your options besides the fact that he doesn’t even have to jump at all to win.
Sorry, but this is no 6:4 matchup. Go play against someone who can play that character well. Alioune or something. Then get back to me.
Good points (thanks for the slide confirmation <.<). I’m looking at Ultra in that match as a tool to just kill his fireball pressure as opposed to actually doing damage. Really though, it all has to come down to patience and smart play. Besides reading your opponent’s habits at footsie range as soon as possible, there’s a chance that you could get some use out of cr. forward to stuff TK, TS and possibly beat his st forward (I have to check; possible if your hit box is kept low, and not pushed far forward along with your leg). We all know about Sagat’s tool-set, damage and health advantages though. Just need ways around them.
Yeah, I’ll seriously get back to you when I have a chance to play anybody with a good/great (preferably) Sagat in a suitable environment. No chance to do that locally at all. :sad:
Vega-Sagat is only a 6-4 for Sagat because Vega can abuse Sagat on wakeup, big time. I would argue the match is otherwise a 7-3 for all the reasons Sasaki mentioned but a Vega with good execution can run a train on a Sagat after any knockdown… evening it up, slightly. If you can’t land izuna 100% of the time you need it, then yeah. 7-3 all the way.
I feel alot more comfortable fighting sagat than ryu. Ryu is way too damn short that i cant really mix him up like i do to sagat. Sagat is so much easier to hit. I agree with most of the list, but theres some things i disagree with.
i’d say vega vs gouken isnt 5-5, i think vega wins 6-4 to be honest. Oh and its definitely not 6-4 vs gen, i’d say 5-5 at best, but gen might still have a higher advantage. Balrog for me isnt 6.5, its more like 5-5 too, but balrog still has a slight more advantage. It really depends on who has the lead.
Quick replies:
I’d say Zangief vs Vega is 5-5 because Zangief has a hell of a time catching Vega. You can really mess with him with Barcelona too, he basically can’t build meter in this matchup if you have any cause any lariat is a free EX FBA.
The reason I put Sagat vs Vega as 6-4 is like SAkeido said, the izuna vortex. The difference between the 7-3 and 6-4 imo is that vega actually has something he can repeatedly abuse against Sagat. your points are correct but I simply feel that the izuna vortex is enough to make this matchup not bad at all.
I would say Gouken would lose to Vega also but dive kicks are a lot of trouble. Especially because the kick is an overhead unlike Akuma’s and can cross you over much more often. Pressure from that move is a big problem on top of the fact that Gouken hits hard as fuck and you generally have to play aware.
Sakura vs Vega was one I originally put at 6-4 but changed to 5-5. You’re probably right Sasaki… I just find it easy to abuse Sakura on wakeup despite the fact that she can do the same with Vega. She can also stun him easily… perhaps I should think about that one more.
Balrog I’d say is one of Vega’s potential worst matchups, simply because he’s got the same tools as Vega (pokes, good throw game), jab makes hardly any approach a good idea, so you have to play a really tight defensive game, which is made tough to do by turn punch and its enormous hit box, and once he gets in it’s usually very difficult to get him away. plus like I said it’s just as hard to get in on him, usually… the only way you can get any momentum going on him is on a knockdown from either sweep or ST which can be tough to get or a jump in which can be stuffed easily by headbutt or c. fierce.
I say Gen is 6-4 vs Vega because his poke strings can be a bit of a problem and I’ve nearly killed a Gen in a fight only to have him combo super into ultra for a massive comeback. His jump arc is so short but wide that it allows him to easily jump in on Vega which as vega players know is a nightmare. So then you’re forced into a lot of neutral jump shenanigans on defense and Gen can shut thoes down too.
Oh i read your 6-4 vs gen wrong, i thought you meant 6 for vega, but yeah gen definitely has an advantage cuz of his jump arc. Not only that but izuna drops arent that effective, especially since its a free ultra for him if you miss…even if you’re across the screen.
Sakura for me…Vega wins.
Fei Long 5 - 5
Cammy - 5 - 5
Akuma 5.5 - 4.5
Gouken 5 - 5
Dhalsim 5.5 - 4.5
Blanka 5.5 - 4.5
Chun Li - 6 - 4
Ryu - 6 - 4
E. Honda 6 - 4
Zangief 5 - 5
Guile 5.5 - 4.5
Ken 5.5 - 4.5
Bison 5.5 - 4.5
Sagat 6 - 4
Balrog 6.5 - 3.5
Abel 6 - 4
C. Viper 5.5 - 4
Rufus 5.5 - 4.5
Fuerte 5 - 5
Sakura 5 - 5
Rose 5 - 5
Dan 5 - 5
Gen 6 - 4 or 5.5 - 4.5
my match up vs really good players
You are a fucking idiot. Let’s see a vid of your godlike claw or everyone will continue to ignore you…
IMO, Sagat’s matchup still remains 7-3…
First of all, the reason your hitting the izuna vortex is because he is freaking out… he can’t jump, cant tiger upper, knee, not much…
I actually beated a very good sagat in a tourny with that. After the tourney, he asked me to have a few games with him and to my surprise, his solution was to crouch until i got near then tiger upper just as i was above…
It was then 50-50… I would eat a couple of TU and he would eat a couple of Slashes because the drop is hard to execute when he’s crouching…
Another important factor is that his TU has invulnerability frames on the startup just like ryu, and most of vega’s block strings aren’t true… If you thought cr.lp,cr.lp,cr.mp was safe…your wrong…
Against the opponent who know this, they’ll tiger upper out of the first cr.lp because you are left with -1 frame upon block…it’s a 2/3-1/3 chance for him of getting that hit because it negates the next attack AS WELL as a tick throw…the only thing that would beat it is block…
Yah, this is where the lack of good competition shows. I completely forgot the usefulness of Izuna in this match-up simply because I’ve never fought a Sagat who I thought I would need to use it against. Good stuff. I’ll still support the argument that we need to find some way around all of his tools, though. Even the smallest advantage helps, imo.
On wakeup even if he is holding down Sagat is standing for a few frames. That is where you throw him. If you know how to do the izuna properly, if he mashes any reversal it will either miss (free punish) or it won’t come out. The only way for Sagat to escape a meaty izuna is a backdash where you use the invincibility to avoid the throw, but then you get the claw slash instead which will then knock him down. Its then a 50/50 situation - either he techs, and you anticipate this and line up another izuna to catch the fast stand, or he stays down and you mix up from there.
Just throwing out izunas when Sagat is standing is a bad idea… tiger uppercut of course, he can punish a whiffed dive anywhere on the screen, standing strong, jumping fierce… a Sagat player that is on the ball won’t get hit by izuna unless you do it meaty. and really, Sagat mashing is still just mashing. Lots of ways around it and you don’t want to whiff uppercuts in front of Vega because he can bust out a huge punish on a moment’s notice.
Looking at Sagat and the meaty Izuna loop argument for it being 6-4. Wouldn’t that push the match-up closer to 6.5-3.5 if that’s all Vega has going for him? I mean, if you’re fighting a really good Sagat (speculation) that knows how to get around it, how do you keep him in the loop? How do you score a hard knock-down at all if he’s not leaving any openings for it? Is Izuna necessarily even guaranteed to land once in the match?
:rolleyes:
are you speaking for other, speaking for yourself hold your own dick, dick
The word MY is the important part of the topic you FUCKING IDIOT I DON"T NEED TO PROOF ANYTHING
^ actually yeah, you do. I didn’t make that post thinking “Oh hell these matchups are tough, these are not,” I’m working on the 11 months of evidence and experience I now have with this game playing against the best competition I can find offline and locally. if you want to contribute and want to have someone hear your opinion, then back it up.
As for the Sagat argument, I think 6-4 is the best assesment cause I really think Sagat has a hard time getting out of the izuna loop. Like Sakeido says he’s pretty much at a constant, big disadvantage if you’ve izuna’d him once, although chances are the claw slash won’t punish the backdash and even if he did and he teched, there’s no way you could already be ready to izuna him again, it’s too fast.
I’d say 6.5 - 3.5 if it weren’t for the fact that Sagat had such a hard time getting out of the loop. There’s a difference between “a hard time” and “a tough time”. Hard time means he’s going to have to take much more risks. Tough time means he’s got a chance of getting out of it or not. Also like Sakeido says, if you line up your izunas on top of his head, if he does a well-timed TU to get out there’s a good chance he’ll do it in the completely wrong direction. Punish with an izuna combo and start again. For the most part, my Sagat matchup consists of predicting a fireball, using his recovery time against him (so that he can’t go air to air with me which is the easiest way to get out of it) and using the FBA to either get a claw strike or the izuna. I play a hardcore distance game, pretty much full screen at all times, working both sides of the screen and staying away from the corners religiously. If I get close it’s only c. mp into cancelled flips so that I can further create distance and reset the situation. My biggest problem with this matchup is getting eaten alive mid screen by tiger knee. Once that happens, you’re at Sagat’s feet and badness ensues. For the most part though, if you play a hardcore distance game, it’s easy enough to avoid his fireballs, but the hard part of this matchup is to make him afraid to throw them.
I think the damage difference is staggering, yes, but when you think about it a high chance of 150 damage is a lot better than the risky 300-damage or so combos we’ve been used to using against Sagat before. At least this way you don’t often run the risk of getting too close up in his face and you can safely create distance at any time you need by stressing the counter-attack portion of this matchup. I don’t often put pressure on Sagat unless I can push him into the corner in which case he’ll struggle greatly, simply becuase at some point if you guess wrong the pressure game reverts to him and he usually takes you to town from there. If you play the distance game the chances of you getting ultra combo’d are a lot less but you can consistently hit him with good damage from your izuna loop so I’d say this matchup is “Poor” but not “Terrible” ala Cammy or Rufus.
Makes sense.
^^Can we just ignore the people who refuse to understand that CHARACTER match-ups aren’t about the skill level of your opponents but the specific strengths and weaknesses that one character has against the tool-set and options of another? Seriously, you can fight terrible Rufus players for years, but that match in SF4 is always going to be 7-3, no matter what you think (UNLESS you have viable claims that can be backed up with evidence of some sort).
Warning: Opinion Based, Not Fact Based Post:
Haha, Here is MY tier list, based on my meager 5 months of total lifetime fighting game experience and a really terrible online win-rate:
Fei Long 5.5 - 4.5
Cammy - 6 - 4
Akuma 6.5 - 3.5
Gouken 5.5 - 4.5
Dhalsim 5 - 5
Blanka 6.9 - 3.1
Chun Li - 6 - 4
Ryu - 6.9 - 3.1
E. Honda 6.5 - 3.5
Zangief 6- 4
Guile 6 - 4
Ken 6 - 4
Bison 6 - 4
Sagat 7 - 3
Balrog 8 - 2 !!!
Abel 6 - 4
C. Viper 6 - 4
Rufus 6.9 - 3.1
Fuerte 5.1 - 4.9
Sakura 5.5 - 4.5
Rose 5.5 - 4.5
Dan 5.1 - 4.9
Gen 6 - 4
As you can see, my lack of fighting game experience colors my opinion, as I find things more difficult than a lot of you guys.
From my list, Dhalsim is the only match where I don’t feel disadvantaged.
Fuerte and Dan only have an ever so slight advantage… barely noticeable… but at the end of the day Dan has a good super, an invincibility on startup Ultra, a DP, a cross-up, a true block string, and I believe an overhead. Claw has none of those things. If I’m not mistaken, Fuerte has some i-frames on startup of guacamole, which is more than Vega can say for anything.