CvS2 vs SF3 3rd strike in most balanced characters

Current Fighting Games Fighting Game Discussion
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This thread should be closed, like someone said before i think, people make arguments just to suit their own personal opinion. Like…

not that im singling you out or anything man…but that argument you say can be flipped around in cvs2’s favor so easily. people here have done it already. I can say cvs2 is better because Yun/Chun/Ken trimuverate rules or something along those lines, or bring up one of the pro cvs2 arguments that have already been brought up. See what I’m saying?

But your comments about cvs2 are the common misconception though, cvs2 is not just CBS like everyone still thinks it is.

People should just play what they prefer and that’s pretty much it. Or play both at least, I like cvs2 far more 3s but that doesn’t stop me from playing 3s in tourneys. The scene is dying anyway :slight_smile:

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Close this thread first

http://www.shoryuken.com/forums/showthread.php?t=80517

DON’T click on the picture that says gay town on it.

You’ll regret it.

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The game would be very very different in 1 on 1 mode. A lot of things would be changed. I don’t think that’s a valid argument at all.

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sf3 casual scene is doing well in ny, we got that cali dude picking chun and its really improved ppl’s game… i never liked cvs2 solely because i chose kyosuke and thought if i put lots of effort into playing it than it would amount to something but the character is way tooo shallow and weak to have anything going for him.

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U can win with almost anyone in 3rd strike, Urien is top also, I’ve seen Makoto win also. As far as cvs2 RC shit makes me just hate the game.

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You have no idea what you’re talking about

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funny i could say the same about you.

I wonder who won that super battle opera I dont think it was Yun, Ken, Chun. :confused:

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Oh god… It’s funny, because today I had a pretty serious discussion about americans and their “tier shit”. All of you americans is just a big bunch of "OMG-THE-JAPANESE-PLAYERS-THAT-BEAST-IN-EVO-IS-THE-BEAST-EVAH!!!"
I remember when Tokido came to Evo2k2 and efter that all of you where just “OMG URIEN IZ DA SHIT” and now when KO and Daigo fucked you up it’s “OMG Ken and Yun iz da shit”.

“name me a second famous akuma player that wins tourney??” There isn’t really too many more. Cause you don’t master him over a night.

“do u not see the 26 kens in coop4?” I did, but how many of them won the shit?

Also, I have a q for you; When did the average age at srk became fucking 11? And do you seriously think that the best characters is the ones that get played the most?

I don’t get you americans, you are very mean and say stupid things to whoever you wan’t just because you can hide behind a screen. Geez, aren’t there any friendly peeps in the states? This just make sad… It’s too pathetic.

And seriously, what the fuck is this “i just owned you hard and cummed in your mouth too.”? That’s basically saying that you like to get your cocked sucked by other males, and you mean it as an insult?

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Touche’…

this is going to get ugly you guys.

I knew that guy shouldn’t have said that cum thing just a bad idea.

That one guy insulted you calzone not all of us.

but the fact is it’s really really hard to play as akuma in 3s because one mistake and you are dead but on top of that there is parry and with parry nothing is really safe, so it’s only a matter of time. (i’m no 3s expert but it seems to me that you could probably try to go in for a dive kick against makoto, she might get a lucky parry, grab you and kill you i’m sure there’s a huge list but with akuma’s low stun he’ll get killed really fast thanks to his low stun i can see him being hit by a jet uppercut combo then stunned then comboed then knocked down then dudley goes foward + rh rocket uppercut and bam he’s dead… not saying it’ll happen but it might… one last thing doesn’t chun’s SA2 take ALOT from akuma?)

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Higher-Jin: I hope you realize that the only ones that feel they are being hit is the ones that I complain on.

Chuns SA2 is freakin’ hard to connect on Akuma. Akuma is dead fast and jumps around alot with his mind game-rushes. The last thing you should think about if you play Akuma is his stamina.

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super turbo’s the most balanced. mvc2 and 3s are tied for best

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Every one has their own definition of balanced. There is no right or wrong answer. Besides, people play whats fun to them in most cases. I’ve also realized that to people the most “unbalanced” game in their eyes is also the game they are worst at.

peace

Sav

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Ya, I dont think the problems with CvS2 is its balance…

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disclaimer: i hate CVS2 because of it’s engine.
disclaimer 2: i love 3S because of it’s engine.

with that out of the way, i’d like to discuss the depths of 3S, and the major misconceptions by many posters (which i find to mainly be caused by pools of repetitious posts from other posters).

misconception #1: parry is safe.
true, i have almost no recovery from a parry attempt, than say a missed/blocked srk. but suppose the opponent does nothing when i recover from my srk. it’s safe then, right? well – if i miss my parry (tap forward), but my opponent was attacking low, i’d say parries aren’t safe at all. on the other hand, if my opponent just stands there as i choose to tap forward in an effort to parry (an educated guess), then my parry is safe. so technically, parries and srk are the same in terms of risks/rewards. please stop from discussing this subject.

misconception #2: tiers.
too often do people complain about ken/yun/chun. no, they do not DOMINATE tiers. they are just more favorable as characters to be selected based on their playability. numerous players have often demonstrated the widespread usability of other characters (akuma, urien, ryu, makoto, twelve, hugo, ibuki, everyone except sean – and no, sean is not drop dead terrible. a good player will do FAIRLY well with him). the main thing that will determine the winner is the ability of the player to overcome his opponent. not the character itself. yes. KO loses too.

misconception #3: random crap seen in a video, subsequently following, a factual basis of something that is only case 1 of an infinite # of cases
you can rush down in 3S. you can’t rush down in 3S. GJ is overpowered. GJ is not overpowered. ken is easy to play. ken is hard to play. makoto/akuma/ryu/oro/q/any character = top tier. to clarify, NOTHING is absolute in 3S (comparatively speaking). the beauty of 3S, as many others cannot convey, is the elasticity of its premises. because of the parry system, gameplay is not as linear…

notices a ton of posters who can’t wait to counter this point by
saying “wah wah all you can do is high low parry throw”

…please. before you scroll down to the reply box and type…the options a player can take in 3S are as limited as the things in anything else. you can only jump, duck, strafe, throw, and shoot in CS, just as you can only roll, block, jump, dodge, attack in CVS2 (no, i’m not here to literally list everything possible like walk back and forth). the main aspect of 3S is the mind game (please don’t call it “random guessing” – you’ll only show me that you’re ignorant), and how players deal with their opponents.

KO is not the best. daigo is not the best. kuroda is not the best. nothing is absolute.

with this in mind, please do not argue about such trivial things. they’re all great, and cannot be compared to each other, because there will be more than one outcome.

end note: please realize that i’ve only defended 3S, and not made any random banter about CVS2. although i absolutely despise the game because i cannot get used to it’s engine, i’ll leave the CVS2 defense to the credible posters, such as mr tran over there.

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haha, like i said, you’re from sweden.since u like to mention country names so much, let’s see… i’m sorry i picked on the weak one. and, oh, i’m not american. so u can really stop insulting all the americans now. not sure if u heard of it in sweden, don’t asume anything cuz it’ll make an ASS out of U…

i’m terribly frightened by your akuma top tier knowledge…i guess you must be really proud of your finding…and no one else found ot about akuma’s dopeness since 1998, of course, except you…u’re dope shit baby…

u know what’s funny?

you’re wrong.

and if u can’t see it, then you’re helpless. ppl gave you reasons in their posts…go read the 3s tier thread if u need more convincing…but no worry, i’m sure your comments on how americans play or think would change the way 3s is played.

unable to come up with DETAILS and FACTS to back up your “AKUMS IS TOP TIER” comment is really really scaring me…you’re so stupid it’s just plain scary…maybe u can explain to us how akuma’s gonna live through GJ, fierces, and ken’s millions of ways of landing sa3…detail man…cockriding, cumeating, and swearing only makes you a bigger bitch…

you’re dope. sorry for picking on such a sf rich country. americans aren’t worthy…the world goes around japan, then sweden. only sweden knows the power of akuma…

ok, i need to stop laughing at you. it’s not nice to do that to swedish. they got the best blondes to fuck…can’t mess with that…

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this is basic stuff so i can comment on it.

Parry does not have nearly the same risk and reward.

first off the tapping foward but being hit low arguement is kind of weak. Why?

Because i’m almost positive you are only vunlerable for 1 frame and you can then shift to back and be safe.

I’m pretty sure how it was is start at neutral, you can press down (preferrable since it is closer to down + back) or maybe even foward then shift to back (or down + back).

Another thing to look at is that if you whiff a srk you can realitically be punished very easily if you “whiff” a parry it’s highly unlikely to ever get punished.

Basically you can try to parry and if you don’t parry anything hardly anything happens i mean 1 frame doesn’t sound like nearly enough for anything to punish you i mean most moves that are considered safe in cvs2 can have up to - 5 frame advantage.

I’m not making any more statements on 3s but to say that it has the same risk and reward as a srk is going too far it simply does not.

edit: If i’m wrong about parry being vulnerable for only one frame, my bad but i’m almost sure it is. Feel free to correct me if i’m wrong.

edit2: Also srk’s do alot less damage, unless you are ken and you do a srk and then you kara another srk you can get decent damage even then you basically get a free combo from most parries. Can you really compare the damage on a srk or even a double to a down mk xxx chun sa 2?

edit3: Btw when i say whiff a parry i mean when your opponent doesn’t attack you, if you are fishing for parrys at random and you get hit that’s your bad parry prolly wasn’t meant for that anyways.

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People who don’t know what they’re actually watching on vids always auto-assume Airdash = Magnus = OMG CRAAZY RUSHDOWN!!1!, that’s annoying. Just because he airdashes alot doesn’t mean he’s rushing or hard to block for that matter. To rushdown you need to set some sort of pretense that you might attack high and you might attack low, what can Twelve do low besides c.lk xx Twirly Hands XX SAI? And I believe thats in close only, Thong could correct me on that though.

In shorter version, you don’t know how to play 3s and assume that because someone is ading they are rushing, shut up.

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I may be wrong here, but I thought the best way to parry was to tap forward/down then return the stick to neutral, as that gives you a longer parry window (measured in frames) than the method you described. Also, I imagine that a lot of failed parry attempts result in taking damage when the attack/throw happens while you are tapping forward/down, not getting attacked on reaction to your parry attempt (which is barely visible and extremely brief). However, I agree that parry is risky, in that if you guess wrong you’re going to take damage, just like a bad roll attempt in CvS2. Generally parry isn’t used for guessing afaik. You only see a lot of parrying take place when one player has started to confidently predict their opponent.

Don Calzone: I’m not an American either. You threw the first stone by declaring that Akuma is top in 3S. That is universally accepted to be wrong by anyone that knows anything about 3S. That goes for Japan as well. Ask any serious 3S player in Japan where Akuma stands, and I’m 99% certain they won’t answer with “1st”. Americans play a wide range of characters as well. So do Australians. Don’t start making sweeping generalisations just because someone is giving you a valid correction to what you said. Comments like “Akuma’s stamina doesn’t matter” and “Chun’s SA2 is no threat” are not helping your cause. No hating though; it’s obvious you haven’t seen as much 3S as some other people. Stick with it and you’ll come to understand what people are trying to tell you.

Exodus: Yes, of course the players matter in any match-up, but that has nothing to do with tiers. Tiers are defined by assuming the players are of equal skill level. You can’t disprove the existence of tiers by introducing players with differing skill levels. And of course there are absolutes in 3S. It’s a digital game with a fixed engine and fixed characters, and it’s been played to death for well over 5 years. I don’t know why people try to raise 3S on a pedestal with comments like “3S has no tiers” and “3S has infinite possibilities and options”. Such comments are random matrix-like philosophies that have absolutely no basis in reality. Love 3S for being what it is, but please don’t run around telling everyone it’s perfection incarnate with claims like these.

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actually, numerous frames are involved in a parry. this is because parries are not confined to solely 1 frame. if it was, the window would be extremely small, and 3S would not be 3S. obviously, it takes more than 1 frame to draw the character move forward, and then shift to down back. i will concede, obviously, that the recovery animation for srk and parries differ, but to talk about high risk low reward is definitely out of the question. but here’s something else to ponder. parries are more feasible to repeat than SRKs, BECAUSE of the fact that SRKs are more easier to punish. so, if repeated more, does that not mean the risks increase?

“Exodus: Yes, of course the players matter in any match-up, but that has nothing to do with tiers. Tiers are defined by assuming the players are of equal skill level. You can’t disprove the existence of tiers by introducing players with differing skill levels. And of course there are absolutes in 3S. It’s a digital game with a fixed engine and fixed characters, and it’s been played to death for well over 5 years. I don’t know why people try to raise 3S on a pedestal with comments like “3S has no tiers” and “3S has infinite possibilities and options”. Such comments are random matrix-like philosophies that have absolutely no basis in reality. Love 3S for being what it is, but please don’t run around telling everyone it’s perfection incarnate with claims like these.”

isn’t assuming the players are of equal level just as “matrix-like”? you tell me to use reality, but there are no players that will have absolute equal skills. so why equate that presumption into determining tiers? you simply can’t. player A will show dominance in player B. that’s exactly how tiers are defined. otherwise, people like mr. calzone will surface.

edit: note that the response to ziggy is solely for 3S. the reason i consider players to distort tiers is because of the parries. regardless of the risks involved, parries can turn the tide for any character. tiers are structured by characters in CVS2 because character strengths and weaknesses are not as countered by the game mechanics.

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Well I did say the definition assumes the players are of equal skill. It’s an assumption upon which the concept depends, and like any decent assumption it tries to simplify reality in an effort to provide useful information. If you don’t find tiers useful then that’s entirely up to you. However, there are obviously plenty of good players that find tier information useful, otherwise this very old concept of tiering would never have been so widely used. (I certainly didn’t invent the definition.)

I don’t see how saying “3S has no tiers” is an equally useful abstraction. The assumption here is that “all 3S characters are equal”, and therefore only player skill will determine the outcome of a match, a fact that is obviously false. (Easy example: take Daigo vs KO, and let KO use Yun, but restrict Daigo to Sean instead of Ken. I can’t believe anyone would think that this would have no impact on the outcome of the match.) Tiers help players compare the relative strengths and weaknesses of characters in a game. But what does saying “there are no tiers” achieve? It offers no useful knowledge other than “play whoever you want - it won’t matter if you’re good enough”. There’s nothing in reality to support that as a useful concept, whilst there’s plenty of evidence that knowing tiers is useful in practice.

Character tiers are not defined by single players. Tiers are based on analysing match-ups across the entire spectrum of character knowledge. It’s not just KO’s Yun, Daigo’s Ken and JWong’s Chun that decided these were the top 3. If Player A > Player B consistently, then Player A will no doubt be able to beat Player B with a lower tiered character. But if Player A is the best Sean/Twelve player in Japan or the US, and Player B is me using Ken (and I’m horrible at 3S) then are we all going to start claiming that Sean/Twelve > Ken? Of course not. You need to compile the information across as many players as you can, and give more weight to the better players. Consistently observing 30% Ken in tournaments full of top players when Ken only makes up 5.26% of the characters in the game is a huge signal. It is real, and the best players will be taking note.