That’s giving CVS2 more credit than it’s due though. You’re assuming that if there were 20 more characters in 3s, they would ALL be worse than Twelve. Twelve could well be #40 then, it’s not a matter of how many characters there are, but their own inequalities in matchups.
The worst character in 3s has to be #18 by default, but that doesn’t change that he is, in fact, the worst (though I maintain that SEAN is by far the worst). The definition of worst doesn’t change between games.
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Ziggy: actually I dont disagree with your conclusions about 1) and 2)
I just have a problem with ppl not calling a spade a spade.
The thing is that 3s characters are a lot more powerful than other 2d non-versus SF games, because they have a lot more arsenals at any given time. Hi-low, throw, dash in and out of range, uppercut, parry, block…etc, and with the versitility in 3s characters, I think its as balanced as it can get. I mean just look at Marvel, characters are too fucking powerful, toptiers become silly and lowtiers are way too unplayable.
And sure Yun/Ken/Chun pisses me off too, but because everything in 3s has a counter, with the right mind games, character knowledge, thats including knowing your opponent’s tendencies, u can win. Toptier to me is more like Yun/ken/Chun/Urien/Makoto/Dudley/Yang/Akuma/Oro and with the rest of the cast not too far behind.
Edit: I thought there were 19 selectable characters in 3s?? but anyways, thongboy is right, its only viable to compare top vs bottom in both games, number of characters does not matter.
I haven’t played 3S much but it has a lot different feel from CVS2. It’s a lot slower imo and you can’t seem to make mistakes easily or else it’s parry -> super. CVS2 can be fast or it can be slow so it’s always different depending on how the guy plays. Plus I like how there are more than one system (i like the gimmick). Well I suppose 3S has 3 systems of super bar but it’s pretty much the same except the amount you hold.
third strike has about 60 charactres and cvs has 200+, if you put into consideration the supers/grooves. balance that, biznatches
Ragingstorm: you’re wrong. How often were you allowed to make mistakes in games anyways? MvC2- make a mistake = AHVBx47 billion, or Iron Man infinite+snapback+guardbreak all day long, among other retarded things. And as for playstyles in 3s, I’ve seen hardcore rushdowns to crazy defense. To say that it’s absolutely slower based on your limited playing of the game is kinda shallow.
And Thongboy: I argue that Sean’s not the absolute WORST in 3s. It’s just that the other shotos are much more potent than him, which makes him the worst of the shotos. Tweleve’s got a playstyle of his own, but it doesn’t make up for the fact that he takes damage like a little girl and deals out even less. Going vs Sean is like going vs Ken, but with less priority, and more recovery. And a basketball. Whereas going vs Tweleve is nothing like going against anyone else in the game.
Sean has no real safety on anything though, and no IAD. Actually, Twelve and Sean are very similar in several respects: They both have to throw a lot (Sean’s combos suck, and Twelve just doesn’t HAVE any), they generally depend on super-combos for any real damage, and they both require SUPERIOR mixup and strategy to get anywhere at all.
Twelve, however, has great poking and mobility. Even though you can’t take a hit worth a damn, you’ve still got a lot of good things going for you. He’s difficult to learn, but not to play well once you’re in there. Sean, however, is crap all around. His specials are unsafe, his combos are complete ass, and he doesn’t have any real advantages whatsoever. You’re struggling for everything.
They’re both junk, but at least Twelve has a leg to stand on. Sean is just Ken with EVERYTHING that makes him good removed.
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Personally I think Viscant’s arguments about 3s are quite good and I can easily respect his opinion of the game. He’s tried it and he thinks parrying is stupid. That’s fine. But there was already a similar topic a couple of weeks ago where the same links were posted by Higher-Jin and some of those arguments were countered. He also proved he didn’t “know how the system worked” because he wasn’t aware of how option-select parries worked at all, for instance. Then all he could reply was this because he couldn’t argue the points since he even hadn’t played the game:
“I haven’t a leg to stand on, i haven’t played high level 3s hell i haven’t played scrub level 3s but i still think parry is retarded but i guess i’ll have to try it myself because it’s all based on second hand information and my knowledge in other fighting games.”
Now that’s cool and all, but I see him doing the exact same thing again, calling the game gay and posting the same Viscant links for like the fourth time in only a couple of weeks… Then calling someone out for making an uneducated comment about MvC2 while he’s pretty much doing the same shit. “3s is gay because [insert top player name here] said it was” is a really shitty reason to bash a game. Go out and try the game, then come back with your own opinion and defend it. Hell, you may even end up liking the game and stop bashing it afterwards. There’s really no point arguing with someone who hasn’t even played the game and it’s pretty sad to see fanboyism go that far IMO.
On topic, I don’t really care which game is much balanced and I don’t know CvS2 well enough to answer. I like 3s better but I don’t know if it’s more balanced. It’s not like balance is such an important factor to make a good game anyway, just look at how CFE turned out. It seems fairly balanced but it’s definitely not all that popular.
Sorry to go off topic but Twelve is better then Sean.
Watch Chikyuu’s(sp?) Twelve rip through people in Evo2k2
Well said. I get the impression most people agree that the level of balance (however you standardise your measurements for it) is not as important as other factors e.g. whether or not the game remains fun and diverse when subjected to serious competitve play (though even this can be subjective for the average person).
Doesn’t that effectively make Sean in 3S no different to Dan in CvS2 (or basically any other CvS2 low tier character)? Up until now I had the impression that 3S was free of this kind of “redundant character” problem, which gave strong support to 3S being more balanced across the entire cast. If Sean really represents a total waste of a character slot in 3S, we’re back to playing the numbers game again - which is a never-ending cycle of fun.
As for giving CvS2 “more credit than it’s due” I agree that we don’t know what the +20 characters in 3S would be like; that is obviously subjective. But consider this instead: 3S was made essentially from scratch, with no strong restrictions on the cast design (aside from the Shoto’s and Chun-Li to some extent). Compare that with CvS2, in which Capcom took 44 characters already with set designs, and threw them into a single engine together when many of them were never made to play against each other. Add in the 6 grooves and on paper you have something that should quite literally be an unbalanced, unplayable disaster. Yet by some miracle the game has a competitive subset of between 10-15 characters (give or take) that is worth playing. If you’re going to damn CvS2 for having 30 useless characters given the context under which the game was made (mash umpteen games together into a single engine) then you can equally damn 3S for wasting 1-2 character slots when it was built from scratch. Which you consider the bigger crime is purely subjective IMO.
The only thing Sean has going for him positively is that he has Shoto normals. That’s why he’s essentially a borderline retarded Ken. Everything else on him is crap. Dan is a whole other issue, because he actually has a few positives and moves uniquely his own (I honestly don’t remember what they are, but I remember them being there from way back when). He used to be overpowered, so in standard Capcom fashion they destroyed him. See also: Double Impact Ibuki.
I’m not saying they did a horrible job with CVS2, it’s pretty solid for what they needed to accomplish. But that’s not the issue here. 3s’s worst characters (except Sean, ugg) are still very competitive against the best characters. And CVS2’s simply AREN’T.
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I only named Dan because he’s a shoto-related low-tier. I could have picked Kyosuke and listed characters that play a similar style but are actually viable by comparison. (IIRC one of Kyosuke’s biggest problems is that he can’t generate enough damage to be a genuine threat 99% of the time, amongst other things.)
And by the same token I could say “CvS2’s worst characters (except insert the appropriate low-tier names here) ARE still very competitive against the best characters.” The only difference is that it’s “names” rather than “name”, and then we’re back to the “bigger cast naturally implies more low tier” debate. That’s what happens when you start drawing lines in the sand like that, but now I’m just playing an ugly game of semantics. BTW I hope you don’t interpret any of this as “hate”. I can see where you’re coming from Thongboy, and I certainly respect your opinion on the subject at hand.
funny how you missed ts’s point completely.
why dont’ you try and explain why viscant is wrong.
It’s not fanboyism i’m not saying 3s sucks because he said so he brough up good reasons and they make sense to me hence i bring up those points yet i get nothing but a run around. NOTICE that i try not to speak badly of 3s and I have experimented with it some (just to make it clear i didn’t break down the system or anything but i did play) so it’s not like i’m going completely on viscants word alone. If you notice the main thing that does bother me is how many people bash the games i DO know about.
I didn’t post viscant’s comments in that thread (i’m pretty sure… if i did my bad)
However you guys have each seemed to not want to try to counter his arguement.
If you can, that’s good, it may bring some new factors to the arguement that i may not be aware of.
If not then why are you even bashing me?
I knew what option select parry is if i’m not mistaken it was said that the parry window is much shorter but it occurs to me now that it’s just a one frame vunlerability (when you do a down to down back shift) and it was said if you do it the way i described (which yes it is viscants example) the parry frame is much shorter, however if you cancel it into a move of course you can’t parry anymore cuz you are doing a move… (duh) so i dont’ even see why it was brought up (at the time someone mentioned this i didn’t realize this fact, the fact remains you can pretty much can only be hit during the start up of the normal edit 2: Yes of course a coutner to this is parry the parry buffered normal but that’s the counter to almost everything =/ ).
However it’s not the point, if you notice i only talk about the basics of 3s things i’m pretty sure that are true. Not to mention that i try not to talk about 3s unless defending another game or pointing out the obvious (you can’t compare roll to parry, you just can’t, it’s just not as good by far)
edit: BTW it’s not cockriding when someone gives a scrub a link to sirlin’s playing to win, so i don’t know why i can’t bring up viscant’s opinion in a arguement in 3s when he’s actually had experience. I didn’t have a real place arguing against 3s as a game cuz i didn’t play it but i understand parry and i understand how it works I also feel like i know enough about streetfighter to make a few remarks on it’s basics functions.
It’s ok, you’re Australian. 
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Nice to see we’re all getting along.
Out of curiosity… what are the 3rd strike tiers currently?
Last I heard it was
Top: Ken, Chun Yun
High Mid: Urien, Makoto, Yang, Dudley, Akuma
Low Mid: Ryu, Alex, Ibuki, Elena, Hugo, Remy
Low: Q, Twelve, Sean, Oro, Necro
Can anybody clarify this for me?
Necro and Oro are higher. Sean is shit-tier. Other than that, I’d pretty much agree. Except maybe on Ryu.
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imo Ryu should be in between High mid and low mid with Necro and MAYBE Akuma, Oro should be high mid, 12 should be in a tier by himself at the very very bottom. Twelve essentially has Airdash, throw, and parry. Sean has throw and parry, plus he has a couple of decent supers, couple of shoto normals, and a way to combo into his supers for around half damage. both suck, but Sean is less suck because he’s almost a shoto, Twelve is just nothing(props though to all the Twelve players, I know you guys work harder than anyone and you deserve every win you can muster)
I have a question for those of you who support the #1 vs #last place as a determination of balance.
Sf3 3rd strike has 19 characters. For argument’s sake, we’ll say #19 is TWELVE.
If Capcom created a new game (we’ll call it sf3: 4th revolution) … exact same mechanics and characters as 3rd strike, but with an additional 10 characters. 9 of the new characters are in either the upper mid or top tier category. 1 of the new characters is in the really low tier category… below TWELVE. We’ll call him THIRTEEN.
TWELVE vs #1 (chun we’ll say) in 3rd strike is an easier match than THIRTEEN vs #1 (still chun) in 4th revolution. Now here is my question to all of you. Does that mean that 3rd strike is more balanced?
I would say no. 4th revolution added a lot more tourney-playable/worthy characters. 9 more so than 3rd strike. IMO balance should be measured by the # of tourney-playable characters rather than the difficulty of the matchup between #last against #1. And that’s why I was backing up CvS2.
Actually, I would say it would go something like this:
Top: Akuma - If you really know how to use him.
Mid: Urien, Makoto, Ken, Chun, Yun, Yang, Q, Elena, Necro, Ibuki, Hugo, Remy, Alex, Ryu, Dudley, Oro
Low: Sean, Twelve
Although, even if you’ve mastered Akuma you’re still able to lose of course. Just one misstake is all you need. And the game is so very balanced that the only thing you’ll have to worry about is Sean and Twelve. Avoid them fuckers.
Sorry in advance for being off topic.
I remember getting called “weak” when I referred someone to www.sirlin.net in a thread about game balance. (IIRC they were whining about 3S being unbalanced, which is ironic given the context of this thread.) I thought I was saving time by directing someone to relevant articles I agreed with, but it seems that isn’t considered “fair play” in the middle of a controversial thread. I guess some people treat that like calling in a ringer, like taking a money match with someone in MvC2, then letting Justin Wong play it for you. Personally I wish people would post links where the link presents their ideas better than they can. It shows that they are well-read, have respect for good post writers, and use initiative when browsing forums. Why reinvent the wheel if you’ve found the perfect wheel for you?
This is a hard question to answer because it’s so nebulous. Comparing the two games to each other in any meaningful and quantifiable way is very difficult because of how different they are. Past the basic 2D fighter concepts we’re all used to, the two games are almost opposite ends of the spectrum. It’s hard to say that one is more balanced than the other because they’re balanced in ways appropriate to each game’s format.
3rd Strike is balanced in that the gaps in character effectiveness are small, creating a cast where the “better” characters aren’t so high above the lower-ranked ones. Chun-Li, one of the best five characters in the game, has a provenly bad matchup against Twelve, the worst competitively playable character in the game. Characters like Alex or Remy, though nowhere near being the top of the hill, are still very playable at any skill level.
Parrying takes the game’s normal character balance and gives everyone a Big Equalizer. Have a bad matchup? Some well-placed and/or lucky parries can turn the game around for you, but the same thing on the opponent’s part can turn what would normally be a standard defeat into a crushing one. I don’t understand why people say parries ruin the game, when if anything they make it more interesting. Despite what some might think, parrying doesn’t make projectiles useless, it doesn’t make certain characters better than others (as opposed to CvS2’s roll cancelling, which I’ll get to), and it doesn’t turn the game into one big crap shoot. If anything, it takes 3S to a much smarter level than it would be at without parrying.
CvS2 has its own form of balance in the way of options. The game gives you more options than any other fighting game out there. You can choose how many characters you want, which characters out of the large cast you want to use, then you six different grooves to choose from to lay on top of the strategies you get from your characters. So unlike 3S’s tight-knit “let’s not stray too far” system, CvS2 takes it in more of a Magic: The Gathering direction where you can do pretty much anything you want, because the weight of options will end up balancing itself out in play.
At least, that’s how it works in theory. Unfortunately, Paper Fighter and Arcade Fighter don’t always work the same. As far as character balance goes, everything works out fine for the most part. There’s a few characters that stand above the majority, a few that warm the virtual benches, and a large middle group, many of whom can compete with the big dogs. Everything works so far.
Then we pick up to three of them for our team. This seems to work out as well, because you can either put all your eggs in one basket for a hefty bonus in power and stamina, or you can spread out your interests and give yourself (SURPRISE!) more options. You can pick three characters that play similarly to focus on one strategy, or use each character on your team to make up for weaknesses in the other two. Again, everything seems to work when you look at it on paper. It’s all pretty common-sense stuff.
Then you pick your groove, more options, blah blah focus more or minimalize weaknesses blah blah, everything is groovy. Now you get to play the game, and, oh shit. Seems that not everything is as balanced as we thought. Certainly not as unbalanced as everyone likes to say it is, but definitely not the same thing we were looking at on paper. Again, I’ll compare it to Magic: The Gathering. Technically, you can pretty much do whatever you want in context of the game. You can make a theme team or a competition-only team or just toss in random shit and prayers. However, when you have this many options on the table, it can be hard to determine what’s going to come out on top, and what might be great one day could turn to so much junk by next week because someone figured out something new. Then there’s the whole roll canceling thing, which made seemingly bad characters a lot more playable, previously good characters even stronger, and didn’t affect others which sort of moved them down in a sideways sort of way. It didn’t completely rewrite the tiers or anything, but it definitely changed the way the game is played.
So which game has better balance? I have to go with 3rd Strike because everything is close enough that nothing is really far out there, while CvS2 goes in every direction and somehow meets up again somewhere down the road at approximately the same place and time. This isn’t to say that I don’t think CvS2 is balanced, which is definitely not the case, just that 3S is a step above.
FOR THE ILLITERATE: I like 3S a little more than I like CvS2.