CvS2 vs SF3 3rd strike in most balanced characters

Current Fighting Games Fighting Game Discussion
101

Yawn. I guess I’ll have to explain it again. Thongboy is saying #19 vs #1 in 3rd strike is an easier fight than #44 vs #1 in CvS2. It’s an unfair comparison.

Now… imagine if CvS2 only had the 19 top characters. I know it might be difficult for you, but hopefully after a couple of tries, you’ll get it. :clap: :clap: If this were the case… if you threw out #20-#44 in CvS2, then the 19 characters in CvS2 is MORE balanced then the 19 characters in 3rd strike.

What game would you wanna play?
(A)CvS2 with 19 characters and a smaller tier difference between #1 and #19.

B) CvS2 with 44 characters, that has all the includes characters of (A) along with an additional 25.

I’ll do it in 3rd strike terms too. Hopefully after reading this you’ll get it. What would you wanna play?

(a) 3rd strike with 3 characters (Yun/Ken/Chun) and a smaller difference between the top and bottom.

b) 3rd strike with 19 characters… that includes all the characters of (a), and a huge difference between #1 and #19.

Read this over a couple times. Don’t strain your brain though. :clap: :clap:

102

the difference from top to bottom in 3S isnt that wide. just because someone’s at the top doesnt mean they completely dominate. the tiers in that game are still changing especially between the lower and mid tier.

sure u can have 19 close to balance cvs2 characters but they arent as the diverse as the 3s cast. winning with low tier is hard in 3S but each character is unique enough to be tailored specifically for each individual player. if i see a twelve player at the arcade and see that he’s actually decent i know he put alot of work into that character.

u could say he’s wasting effort but then again ppl wouldnt play sf if there wasnt more to it than just winning.

103

parrying system is ridiculously stupid.

glad they toned that shit down in cvs2 which is the way it should be.

104

Let’s say that the average matchup of a 3s top tier vs a 3s bottom tier is 7 to 3 (optimistic)

that means that a low tier has a 0.3 odd of beating the top tier.

Now, let’s say that the gap between CvS2 top tier to mid (down to #19 to make it “fair” with 3s) is 6-4 as an average. (optimistic too)
4 out of ten means a 0.4 odd. But, the team format makes it so that you have to do some math. Grossly (it’s hard to keep in count counter characters and life regain - which can count towards both players, so it mostly balances itself out-, but that also fair to 3s since there are low tiers who match up surprisingly good against the tops - ie., Hugo vs Makoto), as very rough probability calculations say:

3 rounds, WWW case:
2/52/52/5=8/125=x

4 rounds, WWLW, WLWW, LWWW cases:
(2/52/52/5*3/5)*3=72/625=y

5 rounds, WWLLW, WLWLW, WLLWW, LWWLW, LWLWW, LLWWW cases:
(2/52/52/53/53/5)*6=432/3125=z

x+y+z=0,31744
this is the probability of a team composed of all mids vs an all-top team. That is, only slighly better than 3s top vs bottom,

105

I understand ppl have different taste and different opinions, but saying something is stupid just because you dont get it, or arent any good at it, is pretty stupid too.

106

Everdred i got mad respect for you even trying to play remy but i’ll direct you to this post about diversity in 3s:

and as far as m3x i’ll direct you to the same thread about rewarding randomness and punishing the mental game

http://www.highervoltage.net/mb/showpost.php?p=51715&postcount=62

(thx thong boy edit*)

and m3x you know absolutely nothing about mvc2 so please stop talking mess now it makes you look bad.

107

Edit: Now you have two of the exact same link. Haha.

N

108

Higher-Jin: Because you think admitting you barely even played 3s before bashing it then spamming Viscant quotes all over the place makes you look good?

109

Another point : most of the hardcore 3s players I know, hates CvS2, thinks its a piece of shit. A good number of CvS2 players that I know, swears 3s is a better game, but they just cant play it in the same level.

110

SF is dead. Nothing new has happened in CvS2, Honda is just gay. Marvel is dead, because Justin pretty much quit.

111

Box’s post makes perfect sense. I don’t see where there’s any confusion.

112

No, but i at least know how the system works.

I’m not trying to look good, i may not know alot about sf3 but i do know my shit when it comes to marvel and i do know at least just enough knowledge to say i know something about sf.

Notice all i’ve said was fact and anytime i bash SF3 i usually let it be known it’s a personal thing.

Viscant does know his shit why don’t you try responding to what some of he’s said since he was admitedly good at the game and still plays it alot more than me.

As far as marvel goes i may not know everything but i know enough to defend it and i really think it’s pretty gay to put down fireball/keepaway as skilless play.

As i’ve said before if you like 3s that’s all you but if you come on the board and say it’s better than the other games because it eliminates Fireballs and the “unstoppable” fireball uppercut trap (which is far from unstoppable) i’ll venture to say you’re wrong

Why?

Because, I play those games and they are good, and besides since when do you have to be a recognized player to post a opinion on the board.

I never heard of many of you being good or even decent at Marvel or Streetfighter 2 Turbo anyways so i don’t get why you trip on me for not being a great player at 3s since i do know the system mechanics but I do fall short on game play. (this is relevant because you guys say fireballs are free damage, are gay and are alot more skilless to use than parry, at least that’s how it came off, and if it’s all about play experience who are you to say that if you don’t really play those games just like i can’t say shit just cuz i don’t play 3s on a competitive level)

Notice everything i’ve said, some guy actually says that roll is just as bad as parry when it comes to neutralize fireballs.

Do i have to be a expert at both games to say that he is incorrect?

NO

i’m sure he isn’t a expert at either one if he says that.

One look at rolling says that there is actually risk involved (since it has vulnerability less than one frame and you are actually COMMITTED to something)

I can’t speak on first hand experience on playing the game because as much as i test it out unless i have competition i’m forced to STFU but i’ve linked you to someone who has played, ALOT so why don’t you at least adress some of what he says since i think he has some decent points. It doesn’t matter if he can’t/won’t respond, all the better for you, prove it wrong and move on, otherwise just let it go.

edit1: I think it is alot harder to balance a game with a huge cast such as cvs2 and i think they did a pretty decent job despite some of the shit that happened. So i agree with the guy who made that point about top 20 from 3s vs. top 20 from cvs2.

113

No it doesnt, how can making comparisons of one game’s toptier vs lowtier be the same as another game’s toptier vs midtier?

And if u think projectiles are useless in 3s, u dont know how to play, period. It has nothing to do with parrying is stupid or fireball wars being boring.

And who the fuck is viscant anyways? There are other great SF players that will oppose his views any given day, his points are just as valid to you as they are invalid to me.

114

Well for one Your taking into account the ammount of playable characters.

One can agree that balancing 44 characters is harder than doing so for 20 right?

That’s really all it is , from that perspective cvs2 is just as, if not more balanced than 3s becuase the gap between the top tier and middle tier isn’t that far apart.

It’s ratios.

Look at it this way in chess 100% of the “characters” (white/black) stand a good chance at winning.

In Cvs2 i’ll throw out a imaginary number let’s say 70% stand a good chance at winning, is it a fair comparison?

No, because chess has alot less variety and alot less characters.

So you have to look at the number of characters.

I’ll refrain from making a comment about 3s but with the parry system it’s like comparing apples and oranges against cvs2.

Overall it wouldnt’ suprise me if 3s is more “balanced”. but the fact is you can win with anyone in 3s and you can win with anyone in cvs2 (yes there is a guy out there right now who plays King) it’s just harder with some than others.

It’s a hard a issue but i’ll make this point cuz i want to be a dick, the “top tier” is much larger in cvs2 despite it’s larger cast and that should say something.

115

yes it does make sense. You can’t compare 44 characters to 19. If you really wanna do that then CVS2 is the most balanced game out of the 2 games just becuase it has such a large mid tier.

116

Wow… I posted saying how this debate can never be conclusive, and sure enough it’s followed by umpteen posts proving this. I’m quite amazed.

BTW I see 2 ways to interpret the topic in this thread:

  1. CvS2 vs 3S: which has the most balanced cast overall?

The answer is 3S - simply because low tier vs top tier in 3S is worth exploring, whereas the same scenario in CvS2 is not. That’s pretty obvious to me based on everything I currently know about these 2 games.

  1. CvS2 vs 3S: which has the most characters that can compete?

The answer is CvS2 - if you strip both games of the “no-hopers” you’ll be left with more playable characters in CvS2 (for whatever reason e.g. grooves, team dynamics, whatever - it doesn’t change the fact). If you don’t believe this that’s up to you, but looking at the diveristy of characters used by successful tourney players is proof enough for me.

IMO people are arguing 2 different interpretations of the topic, so of course this is going to continue without resolve. Personally I can live with that - I prefer people talking about CvS2 rather than ignoring it completely. However, all the 3S-lovers that hate on CvS2 because of (1) are pretty sad. As Sabin said, 3S people are loud with their praise and hate, but come tourney time the CvS2 players are still there, and they aren’t all rushing over to the 3S cabinet afterwards, just because the 3Sers kept singing praises to the game in forums.

AneurysmX: Here’s a counter for you. Most of the hardcore 3S players I know in Australia also hate CvS2, and think it’s a piece of trash. Many of the top 3S players I know here also play CvS2 and enjoy it. Also, a good number of CvS2 players I know here don’t like 3S at all. They don’t think it’s “the better game” and tend to avoid it like the plague, no matter how many Daigo parry-fest videos appear on the net. Once again, any pro-3S example someone can give, someone else can counter it and vice versa. This is the hate and random noise around which so many SRK discussions revolve. This keep awareness of the games up, but that’s about it.

117

Someone hasn’t played #Reload…

Of the two (CvS2 and 3S), I’d say 3S is more balanced.

118

I can live with that.

3s is still a fun game. Props to thong boy for using twelve and his great videos which contribute to the community.

Everdred respect you too just cuz well… It’s remy…

i guess it’s just more balanced depending on how you look at it.

I like Mvc2 better than both games (in some respects) but i wont’ go out and say on a board that it’s better, I just prefer it you guys of course prefer your respective games.

Good thread i hope someone benefited from it.

edit: btw thanks thongboy for informing me about the links, i hope you guys don’t think i truly hate sf3 it’s not that i just get wayyyy too bent out of shape when someone says it’s better than old school sf but that’s just my problem.

:tup:

119

OK, let me explain it again. The original claim he was talking about was not speaking to Amount of playable characters, it was about LT being able to fight high tier, we aren’t talking about Top tier vs #19, its top tier vs. the low tier. The fact that box doesn’t get the argument he’s talking about shows something…

120

The point he was trying to make was that it is irrationnal to compare the best characters in 3S with the best in CvS2, because the worst character in 3S is #18, and the worst in CvS2 is #44. 3S has no equivalent character.

In regards to posting links to Viscant posts, if youo think it makes the poster look bad, that’s fine. However, I would invite you to explain why he’s wrong.