LOL it’s very simple, people are too stubborn to like and play other games. thongboy says cvs is a horribly balanced. Some other guy could say the same about 3s with chun, ken, yun beating pretty much everybody. Personally i think 3s is better than CvS, but CvS is a pretty damn good game. The problem is that most people don’t want to try out new things and pick the game apart. Like you said thongboy, you don’t know the game well enough. Many mid tier characters can compete with the top tier, it’s just a matter of playing to LEARN your character and matchups. We’ve all seen it posted on the forums before, but it’s true, everyone just copies whatever they see in videos rather than trying to innovate.
“Go look for yadda yadda” doesn’t explain squat. I wouldn’t have to go very far looking for them if it happened all of the time, now would I? How much has all of the 3s match footage lying around helped your game, eh?
N - What you think isn’t what’s going on.
3s is more balanced than CVS2 but not by much. =(
Isn’t this ideology in most fighting games. You do something too much you get punished for it.
CvS2: Rolling too much = hit+super, or thrown
ST: Block too much = thrown, jump too much = Anti Air’d
So does CvS2 in a way of the rolling grooves
peace
Sav
Thongboy Bebop:
1 & 4) I don’t know what you’d like to see people feed others regarding CvS2. The net has been full of everything from elite Japanese match vids right through to system and engine analysis (majestros comes to mind, for example). Like you, I don’t get Marvel at all, and there’s so much US footage around that I consider myself beyond help. I certainly don’t blame the Marvel community for my inability to “click” with the game. Same goes for 3S - no amount of videos are going to change my understanding of that game at this point. But I can only speak for myself, and you aren’t making any demands (which is as it should be), so I can’t fault you for putting the idea out there.
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Tutorial videos are obviously superior to text information, but they aren’t always practical (resource wise) for many people with the knowledge. I still can’t even begin to imagine a few CvS2 tutorial videos converting the 3S masses to take up the game… it seems like wishful-thinking to me, and I’m someone who would stand to benefit a great deal from renewed interest in CvS2.
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OK I’ll bite: yes, I conceed the point. However, I don’t see how team choice creating balance in a team game is such a problem for you. If the game is built on teams, it’s inevitable that the balance of the game will be team dependent. Sounds like you have a general problem with fighting games based on teams.
The example you gave was very good, though, and the more I think about it the more relevant it becomes. I still say you need more knowledge to do the job, but I agree that might not be the biggest problem. BTW I’m inclined to compare these ideas to the 3-on-3 team tourneys in 3S that Japan is so well-known for, but even that is more “balanced” than what you find in CvS2, since the knowledge needed is spread across multple players, and the match-ups start on an even footing each time. I just know from experience that plenty of 3S players in Australia were put-off by the amount of match-ups (characters and grooves) they had to come to terms with to get into CvS2. In the end it was far more rewarding for them to just learn a new character in 3S.
Higher-Jin:
Sorry, bad choice of words in hindsight. Replace “random” with “unseen” or “unexpected”. I just meant that it’s so much harder to have sufficient experience against every possible threat in CvS2 compared to 3S, and it’s this high chance of being caught unprepared that creates uncertainty within players about their chances of winning at critical moments. So by “random” I meant people getting beaten by something unexpected (e.g. Nakoruru taking out your experienced Sagat, just because you’ve only seen that match once in your life, if at all) rather than by someone randomly mashing. Not having a clue what to do against over half the cast in CvS2 is going to make you feel pretty insecure, since the game is full of obscure counters that many people are ignorant of (myself included). At least in 3S you’ve probably had exposure (through experience or vids) to many of the viable/likely match-ups, so you have something to go on beyond “mash c.fierce” when the time comes.
Yeah I agree with you on CvS2 man, I hate the CBS scrub statements about CvS2. Just like Buktooth said CvS2 knowledge is so low here. It’s like “OMG RC! OMG CBS! My character sucks! I can’t win!” Naw nigga take the time to learn the character lol :rolleyes: But as far as games on a whole 3S is more balanced.
As for chess, I didn’t know that shit was racist :tdown:
eureka
Thanks to one of those ignorami on the HerV thread someone linked to, I figured something out. Basically, he was complaining that other SF games make you KNOW things, since that was his deal because he was all about “skill,” so he was a 3rd Strike fan, and that’s when it hit me. 3S doesn’t really emphasize game knowledge, compared to excecution and…what’s the word…I don’t wanna say “randomness…” Intuition?
Anyway, If Guile’s standing Forward (Rolling Sobat) beats Vega’s crouching Strong, that’s an important factor in their match. If Strider’s jumping Fierce beats all of R.Venom’s attacks, that can become an important factor in the match. If Guy’s crouching Strong beat’s Zangeif’s jumping Fierce splash…etc.
In 3S, most of that isn’t important. That work is sort of done for you- You know what beat’s Dudley’s standing Fierce, from every single range where it will hit you? Why, YES YOU DO! Parry! If Ryu’s standing far Strong beats it, that doesn’t really matter unless it’s a move Ryu was gonna do anyway; Not only do you know what beats it, but it’s safer because your counter-poke can be parried anyway. And parry is pretty safe.
That’s not to say that 3S is a shallow game, just that it works differently- You have to know how (if) your character can deal with Aegis, but again that sort of comes down to the same thing, minus Akuma. You have to know what hits high/low, and that you can’t throw Akuma’s overhead, etc…but generally speaking, the game doesn’t really depend on or reward certain types of play or knowledge. As much as it rewards manipulating the opponent, it does so equally with option-selcting, so it’s hard to say what the game emphasizes, but it sort of lets people play- it lets them learn how the game is played, and not about the game. Whether that’s good or bad depends on who you ask.
Not really relevant at all to this thread, just something that hit me last night.
still They are still a active threat, actually more of a nuisance.
Still in cvs2 you roll too much you get punished that doesn’t apply to everything unlike in 3s.
3s is so unlike sf and honestly i dislike it alot.
Just like TS said.
Cvs2 doesn’t really remove fireball analogs completely can you really compare rolling to red parry and parry? It gives you so much gain from someone tyring to throw fireballs at you and at full screen they are all but useless. Guile is top tier in cvs2 and he relies on fireballs alot what does that tell you? you simply can’t compare the risk of rolling with parrying the risk reward is fucked up and rolling actually has vulnerability
3s is gay to me just cuz of how bad fireballs are but as TS said it’s a different game and if it’s better it depends on who you ask i personally think it’s alot worse.
I don’t think that 3s completely removes fireball analogs. Your opponent wont be chucking them like its ST. Like in CvS2 you just can’t throw fireballs all day because your opponent will just roll though them. Some plays might throw a slow fireball and dash/run in to pressure the oppoents. In 3s you might be playing a dash happy player I good think to do is keep them back so chuck an ex fireball for cover.
There is a fireball game in 3s IMO but its different than other streetfighters. Thery are just used slightly differently.
I can see what you mean when u say that 3s isn’t really SF. I don’t think it is either, and neither do I think CvS2 is. Too me the last streetfighter was Alpha 2, maybe Alpha 3. Even with the CC and VC’s Im not saying those are good games just that with the system of no dash, super cancelling, etc…
To me its good that Capcom made different games like 3s, and CvS2 so that they could innovate different ideas. The end result was a lot of players. Someone might not like 3s but like CvS2 and vice versa. Or you might like the mvc2 gameplay. It gives players options to play a game of their style.
I like cvs2. Sometimes its a fun game but what gets me is the absurd ways to combo into a super in that game. For example Sagats s.fierce, why the hell is that super cancelable looks retarded to me for some reason or kens far fierce. I couldn’t believe that was super cancellable. I have more examples but this is one of the reasons cvs2 feels weird to me.
peace
Sav
I can’t speak for cvs2 experts, but i don’t think most people would catch me by suprise and i hardly fear low tiers in mvc2.
I use them and experiment with them alot and i know alot of experts do aswell and usually know their strenghts and their weaknesses.
I’d go out on a limb and say the cvs2 experts would have the same expertise especially since low tiers are supposedly easier to win with in cvs2 then in Mvc2 *edit (my bad).
and to the other guy please stop talking about fireball analogs in 3s all they really are are high priority laggy pokes that are easily parried and neutralized.
In my opinion 3s is just so much more homogenized because of parry just like TS said you can neutralize dudley’s high priority hp at any range and you don’t even have to think on how to do it.
Fire balls don’t exist in 3s they just don’t, they do in cvs2 just ask the people who pick guile.
you roll through a sonic boom chances are you eat a combo for it at the right distances.
you parry fireball, usually they advance on you… whoop de freaking doo.
Unless it’s a 3 hit fireball and they are stupid enough to parry all 3 hits (and they don’t even have to, they are committed to NOTHING) you won’t get to mix up or even a CHANCE to punish.
Yes CHANCE because there is still a outside chance you can parry their mix up and you can always just start blocking.
Mindless fireballing, yes. Ryu mid-range Fireballs, Remy LoVs, and Ibuki daggers, NO.
People use these things all of the time. Hell, it’s a majority of some people’s gameplan. You can’t sit back and do it anymore, no. But they ARE still used as a very viable ‘outside of normal range’ poke. Don’t front like it’s not true, mid/high level players still utilize fireballs in the same vein that they were before. It’s just not as tedious to deal with anymore.
And if you really think it’s easier to beat CBS or A-yare with Kyosuke, Dan, Yuri, (insert generic low-tier here) than it is to beat Ken/Chun/Yun with Necro or Twelve, you’re out of your mind.
N
3rd strike has 19 characters. CvS2 has 44 characters.
You’re comparing ken/chun/yun (top 3 in 3rd strike) vs Necro/Twelve (#18, 19 in 3rd strike)against the top 3 in cvs2 vs #42,43,44 which isn’t a fair comparison.
You should be comparing it against #18,19,20 in CvS2. And just for kicks I’ll put in Mai and Eagle and Ryu in there.
IMO it’s a lot easier to beat cbs/A-yare with mai/Ryu/Eagle in CvS2 than necro or twelve vs ken/chun/yun.
Look at EVO results. How many necro’s/twelve’s were in the final 8?? Zero. Final 8 in cvs2 had a mai, eagle, ryu, and a morrigan.
Anyhow, back on topic. In terms of overall character balance… 3rd Strike’s 19 characters vs CvS2’s 44 characters, then yes, 3rd strike is more balanced. The gap between #1 and #19 in 3rd strike is smaller then #1 and #44 in cvs2.
BUT if we compare 3rd strike’s 19 characters vs CvS2’s top 19 characters, then CvS2 is more balanced.
Games with a larger character roster usually have a wider gap between the top and bottom characters.
What’s wrong with using fireballs?
I still don’t know, can you really compare something that does 1 damage on block ,leaves you vulnerable for a long period of time, against something like parry which has no whiff/vulnerability (you only get hit if you try it and fail, you shouldn’t be using it at random anyways) counters 99% of all moves, and gives you meter and not to mention can do it doing block stun.
What sounds worse?
Fireballs are good
Parry is a completely different system, i may not be experienced enough to securely say parry sucks (as much as i’d like to just from personal opinion) but if anyone says fireballs are cheap or ruin game play, or are even remotely bad i’d venture to say you are dead wrong.
edit: and btw they are basically more of a command poke now more than ever in 3s it seems, i’m not “Fronting” like people don’t throw out a ex fireball now and again but does it mean they are effective? on paper they ain’t and look at the main people who “specialize” in fireballs, not one is top tier Ryu, especially remy (if you’ve seen how much meter he sometimes gives the opponent with a barrage of lovs) they may be part of the strategy but they are usually used as a poke or to delay the opponent in order to advance at the cost of giving him some meter… Gay… there was nothing ever wrong with how fireballs are meant to be used.
edit 2: i can see that 3s is a different game, maybe even a good game. But to say it’s better than other games because of it’s parry system?.. we’ll have to agree to disagree
People like cvs2 - and when it comes to the big tourneys, it has the largest # of entrants…been that way for some time now. You see hella people talk shit about CvS2 on srk, but come tourney time…
Whereas 3s has a solid fanbase, and it’s a pretty good game, but there are just way too many fanboys riding that game’s jock…
yeah i pretty much agree with what Campbell had to say 
That’s the stupidest thing ever written. Why would you compare TT vs. Low Tier in 3s to TT vs. Mid Tier in CvS2? That makes no sense.
As far as GWED, Deathscythe’s infinite is not hard to land and it’s extremely easy to keep it going, I don’t see how GWED is balanced at all. Granted it’s a coolass game, but it’s broken as hell.
Actually it makes perfect sense to the person of average intelligence. :rolleyes: I guess I’ll have to explain it again using examples. Please follow allong.
Why would you comnpare #1 vs # 19 in 3rd strike against #1 vs #44 in CvS2? You should be comparing it against #1 vs #19 in CvS2.
Let’s say Game A only has 3 characters. Are you saying that you should compare #1 vs #3 in game A against #1 vs #19 in 3rd strike?? Of course Game A is gonna have better balance if you do it like that. A fairer test would be to compare it to #1 vs #3 in 3rd strike.
Balance should be measured in terms of QUANTITY/Number of tournament viable characters rather than the PERCENTAGE of the total roster that is tournament viable.
CvS2(44 characters) vs Karate Champ (1 character). Karate Champ has higher percentage of tournament viable characters (100%). CvS2 has higher quantity of tournament viable characters.
i play both CVS2 and 3S, and this is what i have to say about the balance issue:
3S requires a little more in terms of execution and creating opportunities… because c’mon CVS2’s execution+hitconfirm is toddler’s play.
There’s a lot more ‘psychicness’ in CVS2. Then again, CVS2 is really a big fat pokefest.
In 3S, top players know the strengths and weaknesses (and almost every combo) for every char in the game… because there’s only 20. It’s almost like playing chess- we know the how each piece moves and eventually know how each piece is oftentimes played. And we all know that Chest = teh ultimate in balance. Besides rock paper scissors. Which is the best game ever invented IMO.
Imagine for a moment that CvS2 was reduced to the 19 highest tiered characters. Now the comparison ceases to be “stupid”.
But the truth is that these comparisons are infinitely open to interpretation because everyone can standardise the analysis to best suit their personal favourite (due to the games having different character select options and different total numbers of characters). Of course tourney results should be above all that, but again the comparisons aren’t clear cut. (Everyone can cite examples that prove their points.)
The reality is this: does Kyosuke being worthless against all top tier ruin competitive CvS2? NO. (I don’t hear any serious CvS2 players giving a damn about what the low tier can or cannot do.) Does Twelve having a slim hope against the top tier make 3S the best competitive game of all time? NO. (Twelve could have no hope, and it would have zero effect on 3S overall. Try asking any top 3S player if Twelve’s tiering has any affect on why they play the game.) Do both games have enough viable characters to help keep competitve play going? YES - otherwise this discussion would have already ended. Clockwork was right - a game simply needs to be viable. The rest is just noise, and SRK never has any lack of that.
3S for me is better balanced… Because you can really have good strategic plays and mind games to your opponent. Every move has it counters… in which can be used as advantages or disvantages depending on how each player reacts to a certain move.
On the other hand MvC2 has way to many super bars in which it is mostly used to cheese out defensive players.
Alright, let me explain this to you, what thongboy said was if you think its easier to beat Top Tier with Low Tier in CvS2 than it is to beat Top Tier with Low Tier in 3s, then you’re crazy. That WAS the point being made, not about which has more usable characters, that was only speaking to which game’s low tier was more apt to fight top tier. Now since you seem to be a little slow, I can understand why you wouldn’t get it, but ok, one last time. JUST BECAUSE YOU THINK YOU KNOW WHAT HE IS TALKING ABOUT, DOESN’T MEAN YOU REALLY DO. Please, read that slowly, let every word sink in so you can understand it, if you need to print out each word onto an individual piece of paper, huge font, Look at them one at a time, take an hour or two so you’re brain can catch up with your eyes. Now ok, one last time, for the sake of being thorough, Thong knows what he was talking about, I know what he was talking about, you have nary a clue to be found anywhere. That particular statement has NOTHING to do with quantity of characters playable, its who stands a better chance worst against the best in each game. Now please, for the sake of the non mentally handicapped on here, quit talking, you’re fecal matter that you call a post is leaving off quite the stench.