im not claiming to be good at either game but in 3s i see a wider spectrum of lowtier vs toptier whereas cvs2 seems like the same a-sak,bison,blanka,eagle,vega or k-cbs. occasionaly you get a ken, chun or guile. with cvs2, a game that doesnt rely on team dynamics even though its team based, watching the mix of the characters mentioned above seems to be all thats left if you wana win.
buktooth sheds some good light.
after skimming through the first 3 pages ive concluded that this is really a nonsensical debate. its apples and oranges (and marvel being a tomato). does it matter so much that a game be completely balanced? fighting games simply boil down to a rock paper scissors game; knowing your opponent and mastering execution are the elements constituting skill. hell my friend introduced me to some random neogeo game called breakers that had 1 broken character who had just about every special, cheap cancel, and combo conceived in a sf game. and i could play that game for months because of the incredible amount of mixup required.
knowing ive led the topic astray, if people are seeking a balanced fighting game feel free to take a stab at vf4. or maybe even reload.
o ya i vote 3s.
Not to be mean but I just want to show this cuz viscant does know what he is talking about, he has said i should say that he also said there are no real characters in sf3, the charge characters aren’t charge characters they have command supers like everyone else. I even asked him recently if his views have changed much and he said no. I’d like to apologize to viscant if i’m posted something he doesn’t want posted or if they are inaccurate now.
http://www.highervoltage.net/mb/showpost.php?p=64557&postcount=97
http://www.highervoltage.net/mb/showpost.php?p=51715&postcount=62
and here is the thread itself
http://www.highervoltage.net/mb/showthread.php?t=1655
I’m sorry if i’m bringing in viscant and probably opening up a arguement without his consent.
Also when i asked him why he still plays 3s he said “Cuz there are people playing that” or something to that nature.
However keep in mind that these posts are kinda old so yea take them as you will but viscant goes in depth on alot of games through out the topic if you care to look.
edit: he also has more comments about 3s but i don’t feel like digging anymore, i read that whole thread once before and i dont’ feel like doing it again =/
shrug
edit 2: it’s pretty funny when they tell viscant to speak off personal experience because 2nd hand info doesn’t prove anything and then they soon regret those words.
http://www.highervoltage.net/mb/showpost.php?p=65002&postcount=108
the whole thread is a interesting read
here is the last link it’s really good
http://www.highervoltage.net/mb/showpost.php?p=65230&postcount=120
Gundam Wing Endless Duel for the SNES has the best balance. . .If you count DBZ Legends as a fighting game, then it obviously has the most balance, because the game perfectly balanced.
Doesnt’ Death Scythe have a infinite though?
shrug it probably is balanced i’ve heard good thigns but no one plays it.
Yeah, but the chances of that being landed in highest levels of play are really low. . .
Most people fail at it. I’ve played with the Gods of this game (Wing 0 and Phantom are their Zbattle names) and they never ever tried the infinite on me, just because it was a little too risky.
But you can seriously get good with any character, and use them in high level play. Its not like many other fighting games, where the top tier is specifically used for overall best results. In GWED, it doesn’t matter who you use.
Epyon is kind of broken, but a master of Epyon will have trouble beating a master of lets say Sandrock. But a master of Akuma in ST will own anyone. The masters of the top tier characters in MVC2 will obviously own the masters using the bottom tier characters. In GWED, making a tier list is actually very difficult, and Epyon isn’t much better. After all, he can’t use any kind of long range attacks. Being a master of Epyon does not in anyway assure you to win against any other mobile suit.
Enough of GWED. If you count different kinds of fighting games like DBZ Legends, then GWED doesn’t have the best balance. But if you’re counting the traditional 2D-3D fighting games, then its GWED. I have yet to see a game where the balance is that great. Not too sure about VF4, yet.
Nah it’s all about Pit Fighter and Shaq Fu. :tup:
3s is balanced through the parry system not the characters. CvS2 is far better balanced within the characters themselves. To me, the character is true balance. Balancing with the engine, imo, is a cop-out. It’s not real balance. It’s like giving everyone a 100% move. The characters may be totally warped and messed up(yet mighty interesting due to the engine) but as long as any character can win, it’s balanced.
Sorry, I prefer skillful, well thought-out and individual characters. Somehow, older games were balanced without the system…until SFA2 where ccs balanced everything:( Engine balance is 2nd Tier, at best, imo.
Apoc.
I love endless duel. I still play it from time to time, great music in it.
This quote from thongboy got my attention because I usually run into this situation in CvS2. I cant stand Cammy, Blanka, and Sakura, as CHARACTER DESIGNS. Which is why I dont like picking them. I usually pick characters cuz i think they are cool. I love Geese but sometimes I dont see the point of picking him when i could just pick Sagat. I usually get my ass beat when I pick my characters, but when I switch to the ones listed above I do better and win consistantly. That just makes me wonder whats the point of picking the lower characters. Then I think to myself…what is my main motivation in playing competively? Is it to win. yes. Is it to have fun. yes. Is it to challenge myself and push myself to the limits. yes. I want to win with MY team. A team I put hard work into thats made up of my favorite characters, Rolento, Geese, Ken, Rugal etc… Ill wanna make a team with Shadaloo bosses: Vega, Balrog, Sagat. Thats how I have fun, and if I could win while doing it then Ill be happy as shit. I dont wanna learn A-groove just to use some A-yare team. I want to make my own A-groove team or C-groove etc…
In 3s if I wanted to use my favorite characters I would just pick then and learn their match ups against the other characters in the game especially the top 3. This in it self takes MAD hard work and a lot of learning but to me thats fun too.
If I wanted to do that in CvS2 I would have to become a character specialist times 3 and thats a ton of hard work. And like someone said earlier some characters in CvS2 have some of the same tools at their disposal. So while Im bustin my ass with my team in N-Groove some player can pick characters that does the same things my characters can do except better and work less to win. Should I do that? Thats what I keep asking myself. Yuri? Joe? Why do that when u could pick Sak and Honda?
Its sometimes discouraging but what can I do except play my game and work harder.
peace
Sav
I agree with some of what you are saying
it’s supposed to be about my character’s strenghts vs. your character’s strenghts
the parry system kinda nullifies that and makes the character specific traits seem like bonuses
in 3s it’s the characters with the most extras that win usually/or has the moves that best compliment a system like parrying.
That’s why I think you hear about ken being so good because he’s so “Complete” he has extras, he has a move for every occasion.
edit: Perhaps you can apply this to more fighting games, but the fighting games that have some kind of “system balance” or another balance where allt he characters play a little bit the same it tends to be the characters that have the most extra little things are said to be put on top. (I also heard mortal kombat was like this (from the guy who wrote the dominator articles), it was about the character that had the best move that was least punished.
No game is balanced. Even in chess, white is better than black simply because white moves first.
But Chess sucks, play GO, its most balanced game ever!!
All kidding aside, I think both games are balanced and unbalanced at the same time. Both games have characters that are just plain better than the rest of the cast, thats why there are tiers. But wins and losses is still dependant on the players themselves, ultimately.
And no parry doesnt really balance out the game, because each character’s risk vs reward ratio is different.
I think that sums it all up right there.
black is better because he can see how white plays.
Isn’t there a combo vid of Endless Duel somewhere?
Hmm…Maybe I should start a thread (if one doesn’t exist already). I just got into this game and am loving it. Shenlong all the way!
imho, both games are balanced in a sense that you can win with most characters, even though there are some obviously better characters.
You can win with any character in 3s if you learn him well and dedicate yourself a lot. Even low tiers. That can go for CvS2 afaik (not too fond on the game, just recollecting from vids and forum reading), some top players showed that most characters can win. Of course a whole team of CvS2 bottom tiers has an harder time against a whole team of top tiers than low vs top on 3s, but that’s because the odds are multiplied by 3.
In both games it happens that most of the top tier is also quite easy to play, and so there are maaany players who choose the same characters.
The gap between top tiers and mid tiers gets smaller at high levels, and that’s why the games are quite balanced since most characters have a shot. But the ease of use of some top tiers makes the tiering gap dramatic on low to mid levels, where most players start, and where they often (obviously) get frustrated if they try to use “different” characters.
No game company will ever accomplish to make a perfectly balanced game.
The only thing they can do is make it so that there aren’t any easy/brainless characters. If an easy characters ends up to be mid tier, it gets to be a popular mid tier at best.
If an easy character ends up to be top tier, there starts the nonsense whoring.
Make no easy characters in the game, and the players will differentiate more in character selection - since they have to work a lot regardless of the choice, why not pick the character you like or the oddball, instead of the supposed top tier?
Imho GGXX#r is thought as a balanced games because it partly accomplished what I said above. Even if some are easier characters to learn than others, no one is 3s Chun easy.
A. I want to like CVS2, but it bores the shit out of me. Please explain how the shoddy mid-tier characters aren’t eclipsed by their higher tiered counterparts. I really can’t see a difference, but I don’t know the game well enough to get it, I s’pose.
B. There’s a bajillion kids (well, only like 2 that I can think of off the top of my head) that would jump at the chance to work with the level of content you could provide. If you don’t have time to film it yourself, you could even just jot down the things you would include, and let someone else take care of the capture.
If you want people to understand, they need an example. Giddyup.
N
Hasn’t Buktooth done enough for western CvS2 already? I remember reading his “CvS2 Tip of the Day” thread when it was going, and learned a lot of interesting things about the game I wouldn’t have otherwise known. If people are still hating on CvS2 match-ups after all that information being shared, I don’t see how him starting it up again is going to change all these negative opinions. If seeing his N-Iori/Morrigan/Hibiki make top-8 in EVO wasn’t enough to convince people CvS2 isn’t a tier-whore fest, then nothing ever will IMO.
I’m pretty sure Viscant was never fond of 3S - at least that’s the impression I got from his posts. On the other hand, he’s also shared many interesting CvS2 tactics that I’ve enjoyed reading over the years.
A lot of the comments about CvS2 vs 3S from Thongboy compared “1 low vs 1 high” with “3 lows vs 3 high”, which feels a bit like “apples and oranges” to me. Even so, I think it highlights one of the problems people have with CvS2. The number of match-ups you need to study to be confident with a mid/low-tier 3S character is far less than if you’re trying to win consistently with any mid-tier team in CvS2, without even considering the low-tier characters. More characters (and team format as well) means more match-ups; more match-ups means more knowledge is required; the more knowledge you need to be safe means the more likely you’ll lose to randomness. 3S has less randomness simply because their’s less characters and system features to know about, and I’m sure most people consider less randomness makes for a better game.
For the record, I’ve never liked 3S. CvS2 is my favourite of the 2 by a large margin. But I’m also an Australian, so what would I know.
Number 1: It’s never enough.
Number 2: Videos completely blow away any sort of textual explanation one could give about something. If anybody’s qualified to say that, I should be.
Number 3: How is a challenge of beating 1 high-tiered character versus beating 3 different ones at all not topical? 3s is my Twelve beating Chun. It’s an assload of work, but it CAN happen. CVS2 is Twelve running a gauntlet against Ken, then Chun, then Elena. What the fuck? I gave already.
It’s not about having to study harder, it’s a big assed uphill battle that is made even harder by the way the game is designed. It’s like saying Strider is evenly matched against, hell, ANYBODY in Marvel, but not counting that he has Doom backing him up. If the team is what’s making you balanced, it’s faulty.
And the 4: If Buk made a competent, clear-cut video on things people don’t understand, it could open up a whole new section of CVS2 players. I’m not commanding him to do anything, I’m pleading profusely. I wish more people would make videos that explain crap to me that I don’t understand. I wish there was a video that made me get how SSBM is supposed to be a ‘serious’ fighting game. I wish there was a video that would show me how people manage to play Marvel and not have a seizure.
But there ain’t. Unless you nag everyone and their brother who knows what’s what into making them.
N
I’m no 3s expert (yes i know here i go sticking my foot in again where it doesn’t belong)
but i always thought being random was a huge part of 3s.
I mean if you do something enough times it’ll get parried, and you die.
and as far as balance goes i agree with buktooth, system balance is a cop out and second tier at best.
[rant]
a weird thing is
3s goes the way of eliminating fireball analogs
while Mvc2 goes the opposite direction adding more fireball analogs (assists)
Take this as a wild guess but if you ask me maybe this is why it took so long for it to be accepted, it almost makes sense don’t you think?
3s was not really like sf at all but a completely different thing all together, people dismissed it hoping for something else, got nothing , played it for what it is and liked it. It still doesnt’ change the fact it is very different from street fighter maybe even so much that maybe i may go as far as to say other games even when trying to go in a completely opposite direction (Cvs2 and Mvc2) resemble the original Streetfighter more so than SF3.
[/rant]
Go look for some match videos and see how people win with mid-tier. I think for CvS2, you can pretty much win with anyone outside of Kyosuke, and outside of A-Sakura the difference between top and mid-tier isn’t that much overall. Japanese C-Rolentos are a good example.
I mean, try people like Kiichi (A-Geese/Rolento/Rock), Iyo (N Dhalsim/Maki/Rolento), that crazy guy who plays C-Kim/Rugal/something and that other crazy guy who plays K-Rock/Hibiki/Kyo. Ratio 2 Rock no less. Hell, some people play R2-King!
CvS2 has its interesting surprises. I still can’t believe how dangerous C-Ken, P-Kyo, or K-Geese are. Even though I kinda gave up the game 
And no, White is better than black in chess. Overall, White has a 5% edge I believe. As Fischer put it once “You screw up with white, you lose the initiative. You screw up with Black, and you die.”