art- cvs2’s a hell of a drug! but vega makes sense, did you ever experiment with using RC grab as an AA against vega jumping up predictably? it’s obviously not nearly as easy to whip out a RC half circle move against a random jump in, but if vega knocks you down, expects a wakeup grab, and does jump straight up fierce, it seems like delaying the RC grab could be an option. feel free to put my theory fighter in its place, lol.
how well did your todo hold up against P-groovers? it seems like parrying can really hurt todo’s game because the wave is a one hit auto-parry and his low fierce can be really predictable to jump in and parry. any advice?
bobacha- i was always under the impression that guile was one of todo’s easiest matches. waves eat up guile’s sonic boom game and RC waves eat up his pokes, and guile’s roll is too slow to roll through the waves. obviously don’t get predictable with them and eat a level 3 when he has it available, but otherwise it seems like smart RC waves get the job done.
here’s something i was thinking- how good could N-todo be? how useful is low jump RH as something different to use?
todo can build a ton of meter, and running jabs mixed in with RC grab could be good, and plenty of level 1’s would let you do low fierce xx level 1 after grabs to get your opponent closer to the corner. running low forward to poke would add a bit more range.
i guess i see N-todo as having more options while still having RC grab, which is key. there’s no doubt A-todo is the best, but i could see how N-todo could be useful.
I think A>N>C>K>P>S really. I dont get why N is almost ALWAYS tied with C. Its clearly a better groove in this case. The only reason people rate it tied or lower is because…its N and no one uses it.
Ummm, yes, but also more of distancing yourself slightly further away from corners and tricking him into parrying medium waves and using more of your further pokes. You can still do chipping strings, but futher. I can’t really explain it, i gotta show it to you. But I use K-Todo so it’s harder for me to explain cos it involves JDing and stuff…but what I was saying is, Todo doesn’t get ass raped against P Groovers. I mean, good P-Groovers who can read you well…not the general P for fun matches.
Ok maybe a small example would be, if the p-groover likes to jump a lot, then you should run a lot in case he jumps, then you end up behind him and then C.HP from behind, fucks a lot of them up. That’s for SNK. CA has RC Options, so you can do lots more RC grab stuff.
If the P-Groover plays good ground games and doesn’t jump a lot, it really isn’t to Todo’s disadvantage either, because he does, still have his medium waves, and…so what if they parry your medium wave, many many characters can’t retaliate from that. Most of the time, their option is to jump.
Gah, so hard to explain…
As for N-Todo?
Gah yeah I don’t play much in N, i can’t say much. He has a corner Alpha into Level3, but that’s only good for 2880 damage maximum…and his alpha counter is shit.
But at least when he breaks a stock, his corner B&B does 5000++ damage.
The one thing about N Todo is that once you have 2 Stock, no one is allowed to normal jump or super jump toward you, or even straight up when half a screen from you…because Break -> Level 3 is too fast. This leaves you one stock to play around with anytime, and this is consistent with what you said about him being able to gain meter good and do lotsa C.HP into level 1s.
N vs C
C has Command Grab into level 2 into Cancel
N doesn’t have that, you can only do big super damage only if you ping, and if you grabbed a dude without pinging, you can’t do that, but…you can in C. <(This is important, and once you break a stock, people are going to run away from you)
C has Air block which some people depend on.
C has hop, which let’s you play more mind games. Although having run gives you better corner control in different situations.
N has Counter Roll, which doesn’t really help todo much
N Has Alpha Counter, which is useful only if
you’re close enough
You’ve trapped him in the corner and you actually already broke a stock before that and you have another stock left, with which you can do a level 3 and juggle the guy with, giving you a total of 2880 damage (If you’re not too close). Which is…Ok. Not Raiden Big, but still tricky in some ways.
N has break Stock, and that shields you and strengthens you somewhat, but when you go up against super powers like Sagat and Blanks, that makes it a matter of being able to withstand one more heavy punch from someone, which IS useful in many situations, but only if you don’t get hit.
N has low jump, but Todo doesn’t have low jump into uppercut, or anything instant for that matter, unless it’s low jump level 3. He can’t pressure people the way blanka can, and anyway Todo doesn’t seem to be designed for that. You can use it of course and block right after, it is still damage.
C has a Faster jump. To me that’s highly important. I don’t know why, but many many times i’ve played, i could feel that if I could jump faster, i wouldn’t have been caught in something, or I would have caught THEM doing something. 2 frames IS important. (And this somewhat applies to his Tiger knee waves)
just some of the stuff, not saying which is better, just…how it is to me…
Depending on where Todo is on screen, the finisher I use is diff. If in corner, I finish with grab -> combo. If midscreen, c.HK -> QCF,QCF+P (looks cool), or f+MK -> QCF,QCF+P (also looks cool, and moves you a bit closer to corner where the opponent will end up).
You also build up more stun on the opponents meter by doing the grab at the end. May or may not be worth it depending on how much you’ve hit them before the custom.
Against fatter chars (including Blanka), you can do grab (to finish custom), QCF+LP, MP -> QCF+LP, MP. This does 800 damage, and +44 stun. Against normal width chars, QCF+LP, MP -> QCF+LP does +33 stun.
What this means is, if you know how much stun you have inflicted before the custom, you can go for the easy dizzy. A typical grab -> QCF+LP, link low MK or stand MP will do 30-32 stun respectively. In many cases, opponents freeze up against the wave pressure when cornered, so it’s not uncommon to hop in after a low MK, or stand MP (which finishes the grab combo), and re-grab.
Using the grab at the end of the combo can be especially good against “lightweights” with only 60 stun points.
Anyway, it’s really up to you. 960 damage + no stun, or 700-800 (depending on width) +33-44 additional stun.
There are also other points to think about. Can your opponent wake-up with a DP (or do they have a super ready). If not, then finishing with the super, then tigerkneeing a wave (+300 guard damage and the advantage) can be an especially good choice.
END OLD TRAGIC POST
some good stuff in there, and probably the best post on todo i’ve ever seen (shows how much todo is played:looney:). i’ve never thought about dizzying someone with todo using those wave patterns after a grab post-CC, but it seems pretty useful. after a dizzy, you’re not getting much except jump in rh, low rh for a knockdown and 50/50 or corner pressure OR jump in rh into wave combo for more meter.
After a dizzy, just do the corner combo again. I always ‘run’/‘hop’ the opponent into a corner if they’re dizzy because that does the most damage. And that it puts you in a good place for his corner trap.
Edit : Oh and something N Todo has over C todo due to his sucky Alpha counter, his counter roll to get out of Guard Break CC!
let’s talk about A-todo now, since that’s clearly his best groove.
here’s one specific question i was wondering- what is the most damaging custom to standup an opponent off of a non-grab? so let’s say you activate and hit someone with low short, but they’re still crouching. you need to do a special move to stand them up, so is something like low short, low fierce xx jab wave (stands them up), standing fierce xx jab wave into the alternating fierce xx jab wave pattern the best option?
also, what are some uses for kara cancelling his forward + mk into his grab during the CC? i’m guessing you could punish things from further distances with a high damaging CC if the opponent is vulnerable/the forward + mk reaches. chun’s blocked super? shoto’s low RH xx fireball or sagat’s low forward xx fireball? i’m sure there’s many others, but that’s all that’s coming to mind right now.
throw out some other ideas or tricks you use with A-todo.
for the crouching thing, i would think the best thing is cr.short xx cr.fp xx grab into the standard midscreen cc? I say that cause this way you can get a couple of fp’s in before the damage scaling kicks in (jab wave does more hits, so scales faster).
i haven’t used Todo enough to know what to do with kara forward mk -> grab during cc other than as a parlor trick. Other than going through FB’s, i don’t really see a point. It could be a surprise factor, but that’s about it imo.
You can’t really kara cancel the Sliding Kick like that, just read a few pages back to do the Wave into Sliding kick cancelled to a grab. That CC is used if someone is half a screen away but in a stun for doing something stupid.
And for the crouching thing, you’re better off with a short -> Grab because that sets you up for a very quick four C.HPs after that for the extra damage into a good range for S.HP into Wave X N…
the only problem that i see with that is if the cr. short is blocked, because then the grab would whiff. i’m not sure if that’s enough time to react and see the cr. short and cr. fierce is blocked to NOT do the grab…
i guess i didn’t mean to use the kara cancel terminology. i’m basically wondering what applications the CC, forward + mk cancelled into grab has. very few people will be dumb enough to sit there and let that grab them from however far away. i’m more specifically wondering about it’s uses for punishing things. for example, is there enough time after a blocked chun li super to activate, forward + mk and cancel it into the grab for a big damaging CC (instead of just doing low RH to punish). OR let’s say bison does a ranged devil’s reverse OR does a headstomp and flies back into you for the punch follow up, does that work while he’s vulnerable on the ground (since you’re invincible from the CC activation)? what about punishing a blanka ball before he’s able to hop back? the timing would be strict, but todo usually punishes a blanka ball by using forward + mk, so why not CC, forward + mk cancelled into grab TIMED RIGHT? see what i’m getting at?
and your second point about low short xx grab is also bad if blocked. i’m trying to think of the best option to really use his 50/50 after activating up close. if they didn’t jump away, you grabbed them and go into your ground CC. if they tried to jump away and you went with low short, what’s the best ground CC option after the low short to get the most damage AND will still work if they weren’t standing up? because if you just do the normal ground CC, some of the far standing fierces may whiff against shorter characters…
For this one, you don’t slide first for a guaranteed CC on someone mid screen from you, you do a heavy wave first and slide immediately once it hits, and cancel the slide before it hits him into anything else you want, like a grab (But preferably a C.HP into your CC), you may be able to cancel the slide by itself, but it’s an extremely big risk because the slide hits differently depending on the hit box of the other character i.e. you’ll end up tripping him. As for the Blanka ball one, you won’t make it in time. No matter how you time it, the pinging alone adds those few frames to allow blanka to hop back. That’s rather unfortunate cos Im sick of just sliding him, but sigh…that’s all I can do. But, if could Parry into CC…(ok ignore me)
Oh, I originally read the question as meaning “What to do after the low short hits and how to stand him up”.
Ok, so you mean, it’s part of a 50 /50 and if the low short is blocked instead, whats a good follow up without retaliation? Yeah, C.LK into C>MK into Wave into slide into C.MK into wave into wave etcetc, play it as you see it, he’s crouching so you can’t use the punches, so instead you have to use the slides. If you get him in the corner then you’re fine already.
good call, i’m sure the damage isn’t that amazing, but it seems like the most practical option for a true 50/50 of activate into grab or low hit. if i remember correctly, didn’t you use to play A-todo back in the day? if not anymore, what made you stop playing him and what do you see as his main strengths/weaknesses?
No, I still play him. I move between him and A-cammy(wtf!?). I think his two obvious strengths are in corner pressure and Vs K-groove.
Corner - THe basics can carry him, get them in there and I usaully do some kind of set-up like; TK wave, land c.lkxxlp-wave, lp wave, c.lk xx wave (wait for reaction). More often than not they roll or super…etc. If they Roll or jump you get free hits.
Or- meaty wave, c.lkxxwave (wait) RC grab.
Or - activate into far gaurd crush or tk gaurd crush depending on their type of alpha counter
These are all safe and when you get to conditioning them, it just gets nasty.
VS K-groove :x
It’s too easy sometimes, just slowly walk forward and time waves. I almost don’t do anything else but RC grab, when they get super it’s up in the air if you get randomly hit or not so just stay alert and dont be scared to random lvl.1 to get distance or random activate to run their bar off. In the corner vs K-groove is the worst, you can LITERALLY do RC waves all day if you want.
Bad stuff- On top of his head! That hard to itch area Todo has and players know it and abuse it with big jumpers(the real issue). Blanka Bison vegas-kinda, Chun…etc all give him problems because in the area he is effective is where they can jump on top of you, therefore you cant use c.FP or Wave antiair and don’t even think of using s.FP unless it’s perfect. A couple semi-solutions are to use f+FK to keep them in check, and use FP-waves(often they get RC’d through though).Or roll when they jump. Another thing you can do is dash back randoly in anticipation, putting you in c.fp zone that beats bison and chun but trades or loses to blanka and Vega.
Quick Rollers! Tons of them, and it sucks. If they want to turtle and wait for RC waves to roll through it can be a pain in the ass. The answer? Well you can lure them by running for meter, often it gets players antsy and opens them up a little. Or you can try playing non wave footsies(bah!) but it is possible. You can stay far and use mp and fp waves plus f+FK in which some quick rolls are too short to punish, or you can work in the pocket reacting to moves with waves and using his normals like any other character. This is where Vega just becomes a huge nusiance and you have to anticipate and play smart. Smart jump lk and fk smart c.mk and f+fk, and reactive waves mixed with dash grabs can get you the victory. Of course This whole post is assuming he’s on point with no meter. When he has meter TAKE RISK vs cahrs with no meter if you want.
ANyway, I’m no pro but I can answer char specific q’s and what no if anyone cares to ask.