CVS2 : Todo Galore

Classic Fighting Games Capcom VS SNK 2
61

For the first point, yes, if he was blocking, you would see him trying to block, but get caught before the chop connects.

And the preferred way of getting out of this would actually be jumping Up or back, because he can’t recover in time and you can actually punish Todo before he recovers from that failed grab attempt. Just like you mentioned a few posts ago, you can RC it instead of Kara cancelling it for the added distance and the invin. since you have that option. Of course, some characters still can land and slam you.

62

With that said, where do you think Todo stands today in effectiveness? Is your sig kinda representative of how you feel K Todo is stronger than A?

Or just playing K for the benefit of the rest of your team?

63

Ermmm, K doesn’t benefit any of my ‘Team members’ actually, haha! K Gief Gets Blatantly Outmatched by Pokers. K Haoh has no decent way to escape a corner, K Todo has very limited strategies. I play them because, I like them. I’m one of those underdog people. I’d of course love to say K Todo is the strongest, cos it’s cool to see an old man raging!Alas…

In today’s effectiveness?

If you pit them against one another, A comes out Top in too many departments. A Gives you Immediate Anti Air Via Super, GIves you a Super in Mid Air, gives you counter. Add this to the fact that Todo’s CCs start with Command grabs and you have unblocakable and unparryable supers. + The resets and you have almost geriatric hell

After that comes C or N, then K or P, then S. C and N because C gives you many options and you actually keep your bar, and that Level 2 -> Command Grab is just too convenient. N Because of the variety of Options again. Then Comes P or K, If you’re K, other Todo’s can almost keep you stuck at the corner for a long time. If you’re P, allmost the same, because at the right distance, after a Parry, you’re still at the corner. No random escape tactices for you. S. Infinite Supers do nothing for him, not much anyway. His dodges are nothing fantastic.

Ok, having said all that, Todo’s effectiveness against the rest of the cast really depend on if he’s in A groove or not.

I actually typed a long post about the diffferences in the differently grooved Todo, but I scrapped that. Instead, I’ll say, Todo overall is an effective zoning character. He has a solid ground poking game, and an even Solider AA mid screen.

The thing about him, is that only his waves are a Solid tool that cannot be ‘reacted’ upon. All the other advantages that he has are purely psychological (the threat of being kept away or good only after contact (his command grab). He is effective in shutting down the opposition’s options in the game, but not because of high priority pokes or uber strong moves, but because of the Wave and C.HP. But that’s all there is to it, he doesn’t have any moves that are good for Attacking. As in, if someone wants to shut you out, you’re not going in, no funny hop kicks or anything.

That’s all i can say actually, because I don’t know how I should explain his ‘effectiveness’. As in, tiering? I can only mention that A-Todo is very effective against more characters because of all the options that he has available after a full bar. All the rest of the Todos can shut out C/A characters quite well (until a dangerous A gets a bar). And depending on your Todo’s Groove, they have different strategies. I believe the only way to explain his effectiveness is through one on one comparison, Groove to groove, character to character, so it’s kinda hard for me to give a good explanation of what I believe.

:smiley:

64

Ok, my fault for asking a semi-vague question:sweat:

Well, like some say, and based general impressions on SRK you really only have to worry about characters you’ll see most often, because they’re the “most competitive.”

So he’s psychologically good in A? Like depending on the course of the match, if you’re ahead in life and the other guy’s got to come to you, A-Todo should be fine?
(Just think regular matchups generalized 'n your own experience)

Hell I don’t really care too much about tiers, just enough to know what the mids got vs the tops is fine by me. Only a fool would go about saying fuck tiers, there’s no such thing etc. If you enter a match the underdog, its either good to know what you’re up against, or good to know that you’ve got a solid gameplan you want the opponent to dance to.

Not too much of a turtler, but I think I could learn.

I think that may have been the answer I was looking for… at least half of it. Maybe the question I wanted to ask is what’s the most effective way to play him. Chip the other guy a few times, zone him out so he kills himself trying to get in, etc.

65

Hmm, ok I’ll describe a Match for you to see if it’s something you’d like.

First, something that I usually experience.

K-Todo vs C-Sagat

Round One…Fight

Sagat does a poke, whiff
another poke , whiff, trying to force me to walk back in fear, another poke…but suddenly he’s hit by a heavy wave.

He stops poking for a bit. So he decides to do high/low tiger
I JD, He does another, but gets hit by another wave. SO he stops the fireball for a bit.
He jiggles his joystick back and forth
I jiggle my joystick back and forth, do a light wave.

I watch for a reaction. He doesn’t move? Another Heavy wave.
He stands too much? I Slide kick him form the appropriate distance.

Suddenly, he decides to roll.

C.HP. It connects, because rolls always end with the character in standing position, and Todo’s C.HP stays there quite a while.
He decides to jump then, I C.HP again. And if i guess he’s going to do ANYTHING other than uppercut/super (from so far away), I run over and Command grab him, just as he reaches the ground.

This is the time for Psychological games.Clever opponents will tend to mash moves as you’re doing combos to them. Those not so used to it and just defend, will have a painful time, because After that Command grab, I have the choice of doing another one then B&B. And you always have the option of running over and Karaing into ANOTHER GRAB while he’s having that 1 second breather. I’m willing to take the risk of getting hit. If I am hit, then it just starts the match from the beginning portion.

This is a realistic example of what actually happens during a match. C-Sagat just can’t get in. Usually in situations like this, the Sagat is forced into the corner. My heavy Wave has a longer range than his longest poke, and the ONLY way he gets in is

  1. You do a wave and he decided to jump at the same time (You’re too predictable)
  2. You got careless and didn’t AA him when he jumped, or stop him when he rolled.

Characters that fall into this C/A trap
Akuma (Watch out for the Dive kick, and he can jump hurricane out so he’s not so stuck, but that’s all)
Blanka (Without RC elec)
Chang
Dan
Honda
Eagle
Geese (But has a high jump so be careful)
Guile
Iori (Careful of the roll)
Ken (Can Jump hurricane to shift the spacing, but you’ll still be zoning him in the end)
Kim (Careful of the roll)
King (careful of the roll)
Kyo
Kyosuke
M.Bison (But has a really high Jump arc to diffuse the situation)
Raiden
Ryo (careful of his overhead chop)
Ryu
Sagat
Terry
Yuri
Zangief

Of course, there RC something or another for some of these characters, so change your style to suit it.

If these same characters are in other grooves, the basics to fighting them are there, but be careful of Low jumps. And Be careful of Parry.

Characters not included are those that generally won’t let Todo Force them back. These are People with special jumping or poking properties that Just makes Todo work harder.

Ok anyway, now transfer all this to A-groove, you’ll manage to keep yourself zoning and yet build up a bar at the same time, and when you have a full bar, what are you going to do next? Again he’ll never come to you because of Activation into Command grab as an AA (yeah) or Roll in because you’ll still keep him away (Or Activation into grab if you’re fast lol). Random supers are meaningless to him because you’re always far enough to block them.

Now the thing is, do you want to go in and do that CC? Or are you ok with Zoning him to death? I’m K, I’m pure rushdown into the JD Frenzy into whatever the hell opening I can get. A is a whoooole lotta more technical. You can choose do crazy stuff like chip him for 4500~ damage off the bat if he’s already stuck in the corner but blocking and you darent go too near. You can Activate from halfway accross the screen, do your heavy wave and use that to get in to chip him some more (read the previous pages on how to do stuff like that, not a lot of people do it, some don’t know you can do it). It’s rather safe because when the heavy wave connects it puts him in block stun and you’re already in his face because of the double slide, or slide into kara throw. Somewhere along the chipping line, you can go for the grab,

You can always also tiger knee the wave (If you want to take the risk) because it does 6000~ (!!!) worth of Chip damage if you plain just do it alone. And the Guard breaks BEFORE that so once you practice it right, just before the guard breaks, you land, you break it, HP, then super. OK but this one really depends how good you’re at getting in because seriously, you have to have him in the corner, and you literally have to be in his face.

Oh yes, an update on the From Midscreen CC. Remember anytime you do a Wave and it connects, if you had thrown anotehr move out before that it would have been considered as Connected? Then for example if the opponent is in the corner and you want to get in ;

Activate (midscreen away) -> Heavy Wave -> Slides Kick just as the wave hits, -> cancel the Slide Kick with an LP so that it doesn’t hit -> Immediately kara Command Grab. You have to do these very quickly becase they come right one after the other, and with precision so the Slide doesn’t connect. Alternatively , if you’re slightly closer a bit you can replace the slide with a S.HP, then before he pulls himself back, Kara Command grab. Like previously, it’s as if You did a Heavy wave and suddenly teleported next to him and grabbed him, literally anyone who blinks for a bit will think that way. IMHO I think it’s bloody scary for anyone who’s not used to it. And I’ve never ever heard of people widely using this so i’m guessing not a lot of people will have actually seen it either. When I tried to discuss this property some time back people said that it was already beaten to death. Oh well.

Gah, I always feel like I missed something out. maybe I’ll edit later if I realise anything. Anyway, have fun.

66

Good stuff, I apologize I will need to take some time to digest that info I’m not sleeping well these days (work-a-holic)

For the record though I didn’t realize the slide could be kara-cancelled like that during activation, that late in the animation of the move… I’ve never seen it myself, and I guess I must’ve brushed past it in my skimming through the thread earlier.

So the jab is meant to whiff so the grab doesn’t right? And all this is meant to be done in the time of a heavy wave?

That’s a hell of a tick throw:rofl:

I’ll get back to u

67

Don’t worry, the slide kick into LP not earlier in the thread, it’s something else I discovered but never put down. (or did I hmmm)

It’s like this in detail,

  1. Do a Heavy Wave at a distance when you wave will hit at least twice (The Heavy Wave starts to hit opponent blocking or not, so that allows your character to do another move right? so…)
  2. You Slide as soon as possible, i.e ONCE the wave connects…
  3. While you are sliding The wave actually hits the opponent at least another time and because of the, umm, I have no other name for it, I personally call it Connected Whiff effect, where because you do a move, and after you do it, another move of yours connects, the move you have just done is also considered by the computer to have connected so you can in effect cancel it into another move, in which case now, is the…
  4. LP just before you reach him, the LP Must NOT hit him , we don’t want to put him in further block stun, because right after you LP you will immediately…
  5. Kara Command Grab. And Negative Edge doesn’t work during CCs so you have to go or the MP version instead.

It’s not a Tick Throw, it’s a Whiff throw actually. :smiley:

Hmmm, ok this is how you gauge which to do.

If the Timer at the top is pointing at the middle of your head or behind you, you can opt to do the S.HP into Kara throw instead, because the S.HP makes you take a rather large step forward. And, the leeway they give for for Kara Cmmand Grab is hella huuuuge, it’s Zangief Like Distance, seriously. So that one is fine.

If the Timer is Pointing From the middle of your head to the crook at your front elbow, you can do the slide kick one.

Personally, I’d take a step forward just to be in range for the S.HP one because it’s hella easier and the wave hits 3 times.

Thats just one of the few ways you can use it. Other ways include the option of when he gets hit, where you can actually, in the space of the wave, do 3 Chops in succesion , with the Third Chop Hitting him and continuing the combo, or if you delay the first chop, even the second one can hit if you’re close enough.

And you’re right, normally the slide cannot be cancelled like that so late, but now it can because of the Connected Whiff Property.

I’ve only found one character that can make use of this properly, and thats Todo. Another is Iori but his isn’t as useful, but really nice to watch too. Some characters can use it, but won’t be too effective with their limited list of what they can do.

Sigh, I’d make a vid but I don’t have the equipment for that…I know it’s rather hard to digest because it concerns Weird Things Happening.

68

That actually makes sense now that I think about it… Execution looks
fairly strict, but maybe its more of the timing.

Damn… Looks like good ways to set up lots (figurative in this case) of shit with Todo…

Like a monster if he gets full bar, after a fashion.

I’ll give it a shot 'n see how I do.

69

Okay, managed to see it now… I am so not used to cancels at that speed. I think I’m doing it too early, because I move only about an inch towards the corner. Most times the jab combos with the slide.
Hard as fuck, but I can see why this may come in handy if you have someone cornered and you activated in the center of the screen, chipping away while they guard, then close in and nail em.

Oh by the way which standing fierce is the one being kara-cancelled?
I am not quite sure, but I think I am kara-cancelling the palm strike to the face, the bitch slap I can’t cancel at all. Doesn’t look like I’m cancelling the palm strike during the startup though, but the recovery:confused:

Seems easiest that way, but I always thought the side swipe was the once you want to cancel…

There’s not too much else to Todo I would imagine, everything else you’ve pretty much mentioned in the thread before hand. I guess the only thing left is matchups and just getting into the thick of it.

70

Hmmm, if you’re kara Cancelling the Palm Strike to the face, it means you’re already close enough for a normal grab right? If you’re Further away, it’s the side chop to the neck…that’s the one you’re Kara Cancelling.

Anyway try practicing the Chop, then Kara Grab instead of teh slide, whiff, Kara grab one first to have a hang of it.It just means taking a step closer, so it’s still ok. Gosh i hope u scare people with it :smiley:

71

Well sometimes I’d hit fierce, like by either the third rep or the fourth and I get a “whiffed” close standing fierce.

Kinda funny. The angle on it makes that possible. Well, it’s almost like a…
forgot exactly what they call it. A kung fu “shadow” thing where you distract the guys eyes with a “whiffed” open hand strike and do whatever attack you intended the first place.:rofl:

Not used to kara-cancels, I’ve done plenty with Kyo, not on purpose though.

The timing on them seems very strict, so long as its done during the startup of a move anyway.

Well, guess if I can RC I should be able to Kara-Cancel too right?

Won’t be scaring many people except scrubs if I find any in Mississippi unfortunately. Unless there’s like an arcade you know of in Florida I could frequent. Maybe I should do some searching of my own…
That is the idea though, hopefully:looney:

72

Oh, ok. Thanks Rokiseph’s past :rofl:

73

Rokiseph you play K-Todo, you played A-Todo, what do you think about N-Todo?

74

N-todo isn’t that great. C or A todo are best. corpse hop, dash rc grab, damaging custom off of rc command grab, damaging lvl 2. Todo really can’t make use of low jump and his run is kinda slow.

75

This may sound odd, but how good N-Todo is, is really two separate issues.

The first one is, how good are you with N groove?

The second one is, How good are you with Todo.

These are two very obvious answers to your question, but here’s what I mean.

A- Todo is special because it uses his movesets with Custom Combo to create something powerful. You don’t have to be good with ‘A’ Groove, you just have to be good with Todo’s A groove, i.e. practicing his CC. I can say things like, A-Todo is good because he has this great CC unique to him etcetc

K Todo is actually really Playing Todo instead of K most of the time, you can be damn good at JDing stuff, but mostly you have to learn a lot of Rushdown / Zoning Todo to take the opponent down because the Special Thing for K is, JD (Which does nuts for you damage wise) and Raging, which you have to be a good attaker to get damage out of in the first place.

For N, you have to be good at managing a full set of moves that Aren’t Todo’s. You have to know when to use the Guard Cancel, Guard Roll, Breaking Stock, etcetc And THEN you have to learn how to rush down with Todo. Thats where most people will say, N Todo isn’t that Great. It’s not because N Todo isn’t great, it’s because , some players can’t get around to using N very well in the first place. They can’t squeeze the advantage of N, which is…versatility.

Again i have to say that, everything I say here will be old news to you, except for the part where you have to practice N a lot before you pick up N Todo.

Ok, N-Todo. See a few posts before, the one about how a typical Todo works against some characters…this of course, Applies to All Manner of Todo. Now what does Todo have that is special in N is…Nothing.

Almost nothing actually, until we talk about Options. What N is good for IMHO, is in diffusing enemy Tactics. It’s something like a groove that has no counter groove, like K and P have in A. N-Groove does let you escape from A-Sak Shoshosho by counter rolling, lol.

Unfortunately, you can’t Command Grab then Break Stock and Max Special. That is the sad case for N, however, the psychological side of, and the Guard Breaking potential of N is higher than that of K’s

The Guard break part is rather Obvious, When you break stock, you get stronger, your moves get stronger, this leads to better Guard Breaking Potential, annnnnddddd…

You get a Max special and enemies run away from you as if you’re Raged. it’s the same mentality they get, however what is different from this and K is that…you have a lot more time ‘Raged’. And you get to control when you get raged. So if you start a match with 3 stocks, feel free to break one, there’s absoutely no harm at all to go up 0.8 a ratio.

Is this important for Todo? Yes. It just happens that his playing style does suit N, because he’s a Zoning Poker, and with Run, a possible Rush downer. If you had someone like Nakoruru, she would still have these advantages, but not as synergistic as if it is Todo with N.

All the little things make up the match, like the way you defend yourself against their attacks, and the other little stuff like the fact that if your opponent is in the corner, you can, if you have full stock and are ‘raged’, Counter Attack and Max Super hit the opponent for around 3000+ Damage. Not really a Raiden or Chun-Li, but at least it’s something to remember because eventually when you have him cornered, it’s going to be part of your plan to do some bit of damage, and maybe even to finish him off.

Having 3 stocks give him options too, having his Kuzu Otoshi at his disposal is good because it’s there to deter random strings.

As a summary, Playing N Todo now depends on

  1. Where his placement is on your team. He’s an Ok battery…
  2. how much Power stock at the beginning of the match (Cos building N Power stock is hell)
  3. How good you are at gauging when to Break Stock and manage your Power/defense, when (if you can) to Counter Roll or Counter Hop (Almost never used), what you can Counter attack , and when is it useful to Run into Roll as part of an attacking option (A move i only ONLY ever do as Zangief)
  4. How good you are With Basic Todo

So, what do I think of N-Todo? Nothing special, playable, but lacks the Danger of A-Todo and Kamikaze jumping in of K-Todo. Otherwise played normally he can hold his own against everyone. Just remember to try and be ‘raged’ as often as you can, no matter what anyone around you says. That little bit of extra damage and defense is very important to you in the long run. When you have 100 life left, you’ll regret not breaking stock just before eating that super a minute ago…

76

Yeah I think you covered the good points well.
I don’t like K, however good (or not) JD is I find that groove’s options limited to the characters you play as, however much it benefits/enhances Cammy/Sagat/Kyo etc (everyone for that matter) in the long haul it’s the individual characters that determine success against the famous single killer of K-Groove teams—>Sakura

A groove is fine, but limited in almost the same way as K is, except character selection and placement are definitely more important. Well actually that’s a matter of perspective.

In saving all your meter for activation, you’re really limited in your game if you’re being rushed, to just the characters basic strengths and zoning. In Todo’s case he has both an alpha counter and a super counter both at 1 “stock” whatever. He basically looses all that and has to rely on good zoning while saving his meter for activation.

Some characters like A-Blanka ignore all this and play normally of course, that’s why he’s top tier.

N-Groove ignores all that, more or less.
I dunno I like having 3 stocks when I play N, my only gripe with it is when popped you can’t build anymore meter 'till the bar’s timer goes out. That’s fine though at least you can still AC/counter-roll when things get sour

77

From Buk’s "Tips of the Day Thread"
12/11/03:

After Todo’s low jab, RC grab or sweep is totally 50/50. Whatever avoids the grab, the sweep will counter and vice versa. Since Todo’s low jab gives +6 and his sweep comes out in 8 frames, the 2 frame gap in between isn’t enough time for any of the generic anti-RC grab counters to work… namely, throwing and jumping straight up. The sweep will snag the jump before the opponent even leaves the ground, and the fastest throws (not counting Gief SPD and super grabs) come out in 3 frames.

Basically, after any grab, go right into sweep if you don’t have CC/level 2 ready. Dash over opponent’s body, low jab into sweep/rc grab 50/50 mix up, repeat. You can also omit the low jab if you want but the timing is harder.

Oh yeah, the opponent can back dash/forward dash out of a grab but that’s really difficult in a reversal situation.

78

Ahaa, personally, that 50/50 is not my cup of tea. 50/50 goes in my direction, meaning if they block my sweep, or throw me out of my atempt to Command grab them, I get damage.

And oh yeah, I keep forgetting to put this up for Todo, which significantly raises his A-Groove CC damage by 33% during the wave parts (Yes, that is a lot)

If someone gets stuck in a corner and you repeatedly do waves at them, you will get 300 damage–>300 damage -->300damage–> etc right?

Actually, you can input a light punch as soon as you can, and it will hit him somewhen right after the second hit of your wave. So it actually is 4 hits, and you can continue as normal (Speedwise)

So instead of going up in increments of 3 hits, you actually go up in increments of 4 hits, in the same amount of time. So 10 waves = 1000 extra damage now. Just practice doing those Wave Lp Wave continuously and you’ll see the extra damage.

Of course, some people may feel 1000 damage is no big deal. but to me, every dot counts.

Again I’d do a vid on it, bu i jus don’t have the equipment for it…eearrgghhh…

79

That’s actually kinda cool. Similar to how Akuma’s CC’s are supposed to function.
I personally don’t believe damage off supers/CC’s should be the deciding factor in determining how good a character is or not, but *hey Rokiseph, E.D.A.W.:rock: *

80

Yeah E.D.A.W. :smiley:
Too bad I don’t play A-Groove…nyaaarrrr

Anyway the deciding factor in determining how good a character is should be based on the answering of ‘Yes’ to these questions

  1. Does he have a cute daughter
  2. Does he have the biggest most badass sword in the game
  3. Can he grab you and slam you like a rag doll even if you weigh more than him. (Hey I like Chang and raiden too ok)
  4. Does he have a super that does nothing but psychologically irritate the opponent and give them a full bar.