You really feel guile beats fei that badly? cr.hp doesn’t hit you if you jump the booms outside of his cr.mk range, and that allows you tack on a cr.mk. I just can’t agree with that.
Not his main tools?
The best T.Hawks that I have seen, American and Japanese, are constantly exploiting those moves vs. Chun-Li, against which she has no consistently reliable defense. (I know you love standing :mk:, but it is not reliable. It works sometimes, but it often trades or gets stuffed, and vs. cross-ups, it’s useless.)
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Again, though, you say that you’ve got video evidence to the contrary, so please post it! I want to be wrong on this count. 
Straight-up Hawk vs. Chun right there. Spamming the splash isn’t exactly ideal, but Chun did have some issues with it at certain points. And like I said, :lp: is Chun’s bane.
I’m a chun player and I feel like this is one of chun’s worst matchups. But I think I may just not know how to play the matchup well. It would be great if we could get a room and play a set of games to figure it out. That helped Thelo and I get to consensus on Honda-Chun, we just played a long set and came to the same opinion.
By the way, Jiggly, I sort of just assumed that you could record (not a very good idea to assume, I know) cos I saw some of the matches on GGPO you recorded. Let me know if you have to play on GGPO in order to record - the main point of us playing a few is to get some videos that demonstrate the match a little better anyways. Sorry if this inconveniences you!
Concerning the Splash: I admittedly do not have much video evidence for how to beat this. It’s important to understand that the reliable AA in this match is CLOSE S.Mk and not just S.Mk, though. That move is very reliable, but you have to be ready for them to do it, because AA’ing Hawk with Close S.Mk means you have to be ready to inch forward a bit when he jumps.
The majority of instances in those videos you posted of Hawk doing the Splash show Chun players getting caught off guard. There are certain ranges where it’s hard to AA the Splash on the ground, and at other times, you’ll see Chamu/Kita walking up and doing C.Mk as Hawk goes for the Splash, which indicates that they were fooled or anticipated something completely different.
Here’s something you might like, though:
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This is a video of Toutanki Vs. Kita. Kita demonstrates **three **other good ways to AA the Splash: Neutral J.Hk (which doesn’t work too well on J.Lp), S.Hk, and Lk Upkicks. That’s four ways to beat the Splash, although I don’t have many problems using Close S.Mk, personally.
Concerning J.Lp: This is not even an issue. Almost every video of Chun v Hawk, including ones where Chun gets wrecked, demonstrate that this is a really easy move to beat with Close S.Mk. If it’s not easy enough to do consistently, you might need to change your gameplan.
My general strategy comes from watching Otochun play this match. Kita and Chamu are definitely good, but Otochun sets up his game around not being so susceptible to jump ticks.
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Notice how infrequently Mayakon lands any jumping attack against Otochun. The one round Otochun loses is for a spacing mistake that leads to a reversal SPD, followed by a risky move (instant Neutral J.Hk). Otherwise, the strategy is based on stopping Hawk from hopping at Chun all day and ticking her to death.
Splash is more of a problem than J.Lp, but neither of them are still so rough that the match is bad for Chun by any stretch - especially not J.Lp. The biggest problem with Splash is repeated crossup Splashes, and you can deal with that with instant air throw (risky!) or jumping in the opposite direction of Hawk. Yes, you’ll get hit once, but it resets the situation and it’s preferable to being Splashed and SPD’d to death.
Hopefully, if I play Jiggly this weekend and we record some of the matches, I don’t wind up eating my words. I don’t think I’m wrong, though.
I can only record off PC. I’d rather play on HDR because my T.Hawk skills in ST suck now thanks to HDR.
In my experience, it’s not that simple. e.g. If you inch forward too far, you turn yourself into cross-up bait, at which point you had better hope T.Hawk didn’t splash, or it’s goodbye 30%+ health plus a knockdown.
Hawk jump-ins are a guessing game that is hugely in his favor (worst for Hawk is he gets hit with a normal, worst for Chun is 30% to 50% damage with a potential dizzy), and A-level Hawks will exploit that all day long.
Yep, guessing games in his favor.
I’d given up on it because my success rate was not producing dividends. I’ll revisit it and see if I can make it work, thanks.
Question: Are you stopping the jumping :lp: on reaction? My reflexes aren’t good enough to consistently distinguish between a :lp: and a splash quickly enough to react accordingly (which you have to do since close :mk: doesn’t stop the splash as reliably as it stops the :lp:).
Note that this basic game plan has been made more difficult by the safe-on-block condor dive, which allows T.Hawk to close the gap more frequently and with greater ease than he could in VST.
I think so. Especially after playing several robotic guiles over the years. In HDR, Fei does have a better poking too(rekkas)but that can only do so much.
Guile can move after his booms and push you back with a normal or set up the next boom. It’s hard to explain .
Play vs John Choi, Mike Watson or Jason Nelson after a good warm up session. Or even vs AfroLegends’ DeeJay for a basic idea of what it’s like to try to get in. You’ll see what I mean.
This is why I need an xbox at the very least. If they even play on HDR anymore.
I think Chun’s crouching :hk: will beat both the splash and the jumping :lp:, . Early far standing :hk: (which you see Kita use a couple of times in the bottom video) is very strong and far standing :hp: should also do well against both.
Though, to be honest, I’d expect the hawk player to at least mix in the dj :mp: which hits more downward, and to use dj :hp: which has better priority.
Notably, HDR hitbox mode shows some different hitboxes for Hawk’s jumping attacks than the YBH does.
Let me start by saying that I don’t know the Dictator vs. Sim matchup at the high end ST game.
I do have experience playing the matchup a lot on HDR.
One of the biggest issues I see online with Dhalsims in this matchup is the all-over-the-board awareness they each have with the matchup.
Some Dhalsims will cower vs. a high overhead Dictator Devil’s Reverse, others salivate as they wait to time a crouching Short slide to dodge it and punish Dictator.
I tinker with my Dictator vs. Sim game, but when one Sim makes me think I’ve got something another Sim comes along with different knowledge and shuts me down.
If the Sims could watch each other play AND pick-up each other’s styles that would be a HUGE step forward for Sim Nation.
I’ve posted many times before that cvital is a great person to review this matchup, because he plays both characters at a high level and knows the matchup from both sides.
Get fatboy, cvital, and yuu vega dj in a room and have them go at it.
Cvital uses Dictator when he faces fatboy, and Sim when he faces yuu.
Fatboy uses Dhalsim.
Yuu uses Dictator.
Have em go at it for 50 games between them.
Let them learn from each other.
RECORD IT.
(feel free to mix in Mavrick, my Dictator; but you really want yuu there or you’re just farting around)
(feel free to get a list of any Sims who think they know how to shut down Dictator in this matchup, they can demonstrate on me and then win a ticket to the yuu/cvital/fatboy room)
Ambiguity sucks.
List the players you want to see input from.
Anyone who thinks adding up each character’s individual matchup “points” as a way to determine tier ranking is a good idea, needs to drop that idea.
A character with a 7-3 matchup and a 3-7 matchup does not equal a character with two 5-5 matchups in terms of tournament effectiveness.
SPECIFICALLY in a tournament that is non-team, large in size, single elimination, or that allows counterpicking.
Unless you get very lucky in the pairings, if you run a character with a auto-lose matchup in a non-team tourney, then you are likely to hit that matchup… and lose.
So what you SHOULD do is figure out how much worse a 5-5 vs. a 4-6 vs. a 3-7 is. (It’s not a 1-point slide each time)
Then tally THOSE points.
In addition, as you both have noted, it’s also very important to adjust for how a character matches up to the “metagame”: what characters are being played in what frequency, who top players are using, etc.
Also, if your auto-lose is to a character that has many auto-lose matchups, then that character will likely have been eliminated by the time you get to the later rounds in a tourney.
But if you auto-lose vs. a character with no bad matchups, then you stand a good chance of seeing them in the later rounds.
BINGO!
The best characters in large tournaments are invariably the ones who can’t be counterpicked effectively and who don’t have auto-lose matchups.
That and Dictator has a wild card “% chance to insta-win from any life bar position” which means he has the ability to luck out and win any round.
Watching no limit poker on tv will teach the power of luck in tournaments, but you can only capitalize on each occurence of luck up to the amount your character is capable of performing and you set-up those occurences.
Dictator can get to go “all-in” if he gets lucky, few other characters can.
See above.
If this is happening, you are way too close. There’s a place where you can zone Hawk with C.Mk and his DP (and I think the first hit of his sweep) will whiff. I haven’t tested this, but I’m pretty sure it’s literally impossible to walk far enough forward to be crossed up; if you can, you’re walking forward way too far, when you only need to move up a slight amount. Lastly, if you’re inching in to AA him, it doesn’t really matter if he’s trying to cross you up - you’re moving in to anti-air him, not block.
I don’t really see how that’s a guessing game; is he gonna jump or is he not gonna jump? Chamu and Kita are just not basing their strategies around being prepared to AA Hawk, which is why he’s getting away with it so damn much. In any case, Close S.Mk works on seriously all of Hawk’s jump-ins, so it’s not even like different jump-in attacks screw you over. I guess you could say I’m reacting to Hawk’s jump, rather than whatever attack he chooses.
I think we’ve reached an impasse, here. You don’t think that Close S.Mk is reliable against the Splash, but I’ve not had any problems with it. Sure, the timing is stricter on using it to AA a Splash - you have to do it kind of early - but the same timing works to stop J.Lp, so if you start throwing out Close S.Mk a little earlier, then it should work. Either way, we’re pretty much just saying “no it doesn’t” “yes it does” on this point, so unfortunately, I guess there’s not much more to say.
On the other hand, it’s much safer to try and hit him out of the Dive now, because failing to do so doesn’t mean the round is over like it did in ST. Even in ST, it wasn’t actually hard to hit him out of the Dive (S.Lp, Far & Close S.Mk, Upkicks, J.Mk, and Neutral J.Hk all work); it just wasn’t worth the risk in ST. Now, with Hawk gaining such an advantageous situation on hit AND block (ugh), there’s never any reason to not try and hit him out of it. So, this isn’t really easier for Hawk in STHD; it just requires a different approach.
This is definitely the biggest thing that’s changed in the match, though, and I admit it threw me for a loop the last time I played Jiggly a few months ago (cos that’s when I learned about it). So, while I used to think that the new dive made the match much harder for Hawk, I realize that it’s about the same - just, instead of always blocking the dive, you now have to always hit him out of it.
Note: I don’t use the splash except for cross-ups. I find the jumping fierce to be much more effective.
Any good Chun Li player will use the close standing forward to counter the jump in jab. But this is where the Hawk player should start mixing the jumping jab with jumping fierce. The fierce is very effective because it will beat a lot of normals that the opponent uses to counter his jumping jab, including Chun’s standing forward. (It normally hits clean but it will trade sometimes but that’s okay because Hawk wins the trade damage). The jumping fierce also works well against Dictator players who like to use low forward to counter the jumping jab.
This is the guessing game that I believe others are referring to. And there still is the third option to dive instead. Chun has some counters but she needs to guess correctly and that takes some very fast reactions and thinking when Hawk is pressuring you, especially in the corner… From my experience I find that even the good Chun players start to panic in this situation becuase Hawk has so many option on how to mix up his attacks.
Jump Fierce is definitely Hawk’s most underrated move. It’s also makes the Dhalsim/Hawk match somewhat bearable since it will beat out anti-airs that will stuff the other moves, or at least make the trade worth it. It somehow reaches out to hit dhalsim out of yoga flame even at distances where Hawk should be hit
Hey, Milo.
These numbers almost make it seem like Cammy got worse. Do you think any of her match-ups actually got easier in HDR? These numbers a surprisingly lower than I would have surmised.
- James
I’d think the new safe drill thing would help a little? Not at all?
Who plays Cammy seriously? I can only think of Antagonist offhand. I know I’ve played a few more a while back.
We’ve got some on PSN, quite a few though, and alot of fei’'s seem to use her too. . .
IDK about xbox, except for Milo, and JChen when/still? played/plays?
James doesn’t play this game anymore. And if he were to play he wouldn’t pick Cammy.
Antagonist is really good with Cammy. Plus he’s a cool cat and a lot of fun to play with online. BruceLB plays Cammy, and MonGoloRoboKop plays her as well.
Hmm, why 5.5 4.5 Cammy vs Claw? Version 3 ST match up chart says it’s 6-4 in Cammy’s favor if I’m reading it properly. Not sure how the Japanese feel about it. I think if Cammy knocks Vega down, the safe jump MP set up is worse for him than his Wall Dive loop from ST. He can run, but I haven’t felt uncomfortable in the match whenever I scored a knockdown. Especially since you can reversal out or standing LK out in some cases. Need a new perspective on it, I guess.
I’ve found it doesn’t matter much, I think it helps in a few match ups but is negligible in others. Mostly vs Boxer, I haven’t fought enough of other matches, and in other matches it wasn’t needed for her to win in the first place. It doesn’t seem to be 100% safe against everyone. Like, I’ve been swept after cr mk xx Cannon Drill on block and I’ve just blocked, hadn’t pressed a button when fighting Ryu/Ken. I guess it’s a case by case basis on certain normals, I know spacing comes into account but it seems to be nearly the same in those match ups. I miss the safe Thrust Kick, really.