6-4 Hawk, not 6-4 Chun. Don’t confuse yourself.
I know you claim Hawk 6 - 4 Chun, but skankin garbage claims it’s Hawk 4 - 6 Chun.
All due respect to Thelo (a GREAT Honda player) and the many good players who have contributed to these rankings, but VirtuaFighterFour is right, there is still some WTF in this chart.
First off, let me just get the two characters that I play frequently out of the way: No way in Hell is Chun-Li better than Ken, Guile, Sagat, Blanka, or Dictator. She’s probably isn’t even as good as T.Hawk, whose safe-on-block condor dive alone is enough to put him in the lower-mid range at worst. (F*ck characters who can play guessing games from the other side of the screen – T.Hawk, Dictator, Claw, etc.) Change the numbers to reflect the fact that she doesn’t beat Ken, Fei Long, or Dictator, and that she loses pretty horribly to T.Hawk (even worse than she did in ST), and you’ll start to get more accurate stats for her.
As for Cammy, that’s more like it, although she does NOT beat Fei (as Jesse explained) or Boxer (low jab), nor is she even with Sagat (LOL!), who is very good at turtling, which is Cammy’s Achilles heel. I’m not sure I’d put her at the bottom of the rankings anymore, but she’s no better than second to last, for sure.
I’m not sure where I’d place Dhalsim (because there are EXTREMELY few good Dhalsims in HDR, like two or three), but he’s gotta be too high in this chart. Guile is a monster now, for example, and should definitely be higher than Dhalsim (and Ken, and Chun-Li, and Honda). Honda’s scrubby ass is likely a more winning character than Dhalsim, too.
Weird that Dictator is so low on the list, he was respectable in ST (his awful handicap in the corner vs. anyone with a special grab really did him in in rankings) and it seems to me that he is a FORCE, now. Fei even with Dictator is definitely made of LOL, Fei has to work his ass off vs. Dic’s flying circus monkey b.s.
I have trouble with any list that puts Zangief at the bottom of HDR. I’ve seen Zangief go on streaks in rooms with top-notch players, and I’m not just talking haru tejyo. Maybe he has taken the “worst in the game” mantle from Cammy, but I haven’t seen any conclusive evidence of this.
In any case, it’s certainly more difficult to judge the HDR roster than the ST roster, which is a real credit to Sirlin’s aim of compressing the tiers. I would LOVE to see a Japanese chart.
Pretty much all of Fei’s advantages are in the corner because you limit their options. Toe to toe out in the open Dic totally outpokes fei. Fei’s only reliable poke is his rekka punch…everything else loses or badly trades with Dic’s standing kicks. Dic has the same type of speed as boxer does when it comes to his scissor kicks and crusher. Very hard to react to, so you pretty much have to rely on guessing and pattern recognition in hopes of stuffing whichever charge move he does.
Hehe, yeah I’d say more practice. The toughest times I have had fighting Dic have come down to Fei literally chasing him all over the place. You gotta pin him down to rip him apart. It’s just really hard because all he needs is one knockdown and you’re at the mercy of the crossup games, and Dic’s crossups are by far the sickest in the game.
I can see why Hawk and Gief would give Dic hell in the corner. Body splashes pretty much eliminate air escapes. Oh, and I’ve seen jumping jab lose the trade against Dic’s jump strong right off the ground. His jump strong is still weird as hell, and sometimes I could swear it has off the ground anti air properties:xeye:
One tweak I’d make to the Dhalsim chart is to change vs Bison from 5-5 to 4-6 in favor of Bison.
- In ST, Bison can lock Sim in the corner and Sim can lock Bison in the corner. But now Bison has an easier time getting out of the corner.
- In the open, Sim’s biggest advantage is drill -> throw, but the lower range of MP throw in HDR makes this much tougher.
- Bisons fake slide and easier to juggle j.MP give him extra pressure and extra damage.
Yeah, his jump strong is his best option in air to air versus fei, and a lot of others. It hits after just 3 frames, which is pretty quick, and the hitbox sticks way out in front and covers him nicely, so you’re dangerous from the moment you leave the ground. You have to get the timing and spacing perfect against fei’s jump jab though, it’s much tougher if he gets the jump on you.
Hahah, ok, i think i need to take my dictator back to the drawing board against fei, and work on my “flying circus monkey B.S.”. I seem to be having way too tough a time against the best ones if what you guys say is right. Streetfighterdojo.com here i come! Having said that i still beat 8 out of 10 fei’s comfortably, but the really good ones seem to put me in the corner for fun all day long. It’s like all the advantages Dic has in the match get swallowed up by fei’s rekka range and that one damn corner trap…
Definitely. I’ve said it all along about HDR, regardless of whatever justifiable niggles you may have about the way your main was buffed or nerfed in the remixing process, if you step back from the personal point of view and look at the viability of the game from a tournament play standpoint, a new player coming in to street fighter via HDR has a much wider character choice than they had in VST if they want to actually stand a chance of placing in a top 8, and a much better chance of getting out of the qualification rounds with ANY of the characters on the roster than before.
Over the last year we’ve seen Fei, Honda, and a bunch of others all make top 8’s at major tourneys, which was unheard of before. This has to be an improvement to things overall.
Yeah, at first thought, it seems as if no wall dive knockdowns should reduce the matchup by at least half a point but then you consider that if we took half a point off from most of claw’s matchups (because we could make the same argument elsewhere), claw would be sitting square at mid-tier, which doesn’t seem right. Plus, I’m no Chun or Dhalsim player, where any minor hitbox/damage reduction would presumably make me feel a matchup is much worse. 
Yeah, it’s 10%+ damage loss per round but negligible in the grand scheme of things IMO.
Anyway, online HDR isn’t an accurate representation of offline HDR, the latter of which is what this chart should be about (and if it’s about online HDR, then that should be stated in the title). If GGPO is pretty accurate to ST, Live/PSN is only fairly accurate to HDR. I’ve certainly seen some folks play with different levels of effectiveness between offline tourneys and online. I pop up on HDR at random intervals so you’ll have to be lucky or schedule something beforehand.
My gut tells me this feels wrong. 10% damage is a lot.
I’d make an analogy here with Chun vs Dictator. At first I didn’t think the DR for dictator would make THAT big a difference in the fight. But in practice, as a Chun player, it makes a really big difference. That one DR means he gets out, and that’s one more chance to just insta-lose the game.
I feel it’s the same with Claw. Sure the “normal” ryu vs claw fight doesn’t involve the walldive too much. But in ST, if Claw gets one anti air flipkick in, it mean walls dive loop, which is a possibility of winning the round right there. Claw now loses that. That has to make a difference – at least for me I know I’ve won VST games against top ryu players that I should have lost from getting one flip kick and then wall diving to death. That option is taken out in HDR, and it’s a big option.
I also disagree that the fake FB doesn’t affect the matchup. It really improves ryu’s close game, since now after a crossup he can do a series of block strings into fake FB, which gives him a good chance of a new knock down (fake FB->FB, ->DP, or into low RH->fake FB again). Ryu’s close range oki game against Claw was already pretty scary and now it’s even scarier.
I just can’t agree that the matchup is unchanged.
I feel you on that. I’m thinking people have either upped their anti Ryu sentiments or DGV and Afrolegends have been terrorizing peeps too much…or both. LOL
Agreed, but Dhalsim’s Fierce throw still has more range than Dictator. It’s not loopable like the Strong throw, but if the Dhalsim player gets creative enough, Dictator can still be looped with just the Fierce throw. Even if the Dictator player techs each throw, that damage will add up nicely if he can’t escape the loop, esp in the corner.
The matchup has changed, but not all that much. Yes, Ryu gets to stay on his feet if he guesses a meaty Wall Dive incorrectly, and yes, Ryu gets to fake out Claw with Fake Hadoken into Shoryuken mind games.
But that’s it.
The reason Claw still beats Ryu hard, IMO, is cuz of cr Strong and long range Wall Dives. Ryu’s slower recovery and less range on the Shoryuken compared to Ken, makes him easily punishable on whiffed Jab Shoryukens, and long range Wall Dives are impossible to beat with anything Ryu has. At least Ken can Fierce Shoryuken anything airborne over 3/4 screen away, but Ryu can’t. And Ken’s faster recovery makes whiffing Jab Shoryukens a better tactic at getting the knockdown on Claw.
And Ryu’s usually strong weapon in all other matches, Hadoken, is not that strong vs Claw, as he can easily jump on reaction or Wall Dive. Ryu’s only opportunity to beat Claw is to get inside and start crossing up on knockdown and start ticking/Shoryuken mixups Claw to death. But I personally would NEVER even go for Fake Hadoken games if I ever got an advantage after a knockdown. One correct guess from the Claw player, and Ryu will eat a cr Strong through the Fake Hadoken and lose his advantage. And then it’s time to chase that Claw player down again…
I really wanna hear what the other Chun players say about Hawk vs. Chun. Skankin says its Chun’s favor, I THINK gridman said its in Hawks favor (correct me if im wrong), Milo says its in Hawks favor, and I saw its in Hawks favor too. Anyone else?
I’m sure that doesn’t hurt. But I don’t think that’s the only factor. Ryu was already pretty competitive in ST. In HDR he doesn’t have to deal with O.Sagat and Sim, Rog, and Vega were all nerfed a bit. Did any of his matches get markedly more difficult?
True, but the fierce throw doesn’t allow you to keep up the pressure nearly as easily. It’s not terribly easy to pin him down to begin with, so that makes the fierce throw a gamble to me. On the one hand, you get the throw but on the other, he might be able to escape after it. It’s certainly a great finishing move choice, but if you’re not near the corner I don’t think it’s an equal replacement for noogies.
I could be off about this match. But it feels like Bison has a slight edge vs Sim to me. I’d be curious to know what other Sim/Dic players like Zaspacer, Fatboy, etc. think about this one.
I think Thelo’s chart is shaping up but I wish more of the top players would chime in and maybe we could see the rankings take shape a bit more. Some already have but there are still a number out there who haven’t yet.
I do agree that there is some weirdness in this chart. Cammy seems higher than she probably should be but look at her two best matches: vs Zangief and T-Hawk. Virtually no one plays Hawk. There are a few Zangief players but not a whole lot, especially the better players. I think in her case, her ranking is a bit deceiving. And they’re ranked as the two lowest to boot. Against the characters a lot of people use, those are the matches where she usually gets punked. I almost feel like matchups should be weighted more based on the strength of the other character or the frequency they are being used but that’s going to get way too complicated. 
I’ve already spoken about Dictator earlier. His strongest trait could possibly be that he doesn’t fear any matchup… I still think either his rankings are off or he’s just a victim of not having dominant matchups. IIRC, he was ranked pretty low in ST but we all know how well some of the elite Japanese Dictator players fared with him. So his ranking in ST was even a little odd.
Just like Jumpsuit said, Dictator’s crossups are the sickest in the game. Whenever I’m playing against Dictator, I feel like I’m constantly playing the coin flip game with his crossups. It kind of makes sense to me that all his matches are about 50/50 based on his play. Yet, I feel like he’s much better than his ranking says he is.
IMO, Zangief is still way too low on the chart. I had him at +7 (64) over what he is right now but yet that looks like it would only bump him up over T-Hawk. To have Zangief ranked that low, yet knowing the power he has, speaks a lot of how the tiers have compressed.
I ranked it as 7-3 Hawk. I’m a little rusty in that match but I played quite a bit against Voltech the other night and he was giving me a difficult time but I think we went about even (maybe 6-4 Hawk?).
I too would be curious as to what some other Chun players (Voltech!) say. :karate:
I don’t see how Chun-Li wins this match, even by a little; splash and jumping :LP: are just so easy and so dominant. Plus he has more chances than ever to use them, now that he can close the gap with the much safer dive.
I wanna know what Mongolo thinks; he probably has the single best American Chun on XBL. I would defer to his assessment. Any tips on beating T.Hawk using Chun-Li without having to resort to shenanigans would be most welcome!
Ryu’s matches didn’t get more difficult, but they didn’t get easier either. Not enough to warrant such a huge jump from bottom of top tier to number 1 anyway. His difficult matches are still difficult, and Fake Hadoken hasn’t helped a lot vs Claw, Boxer and Dhalsim. It has helped a little, but not a lot. Oh sure, Fake Hadoken kills a lot of Ryu’s easier matchups like Honda and Cammy, but I’m not talking about those matchups. IMO Claw vs Ryu in ST was 8-2 Claw, but is 7-3 Claw in HDR, and all of that comes from not having to deal with repeated Wall Dive knockdowns anymore.
If you compare Claw’s most difficult match in HDR, which is Dictator IMO, it’s 6-4 Dictator, and that’s being generous. I think it’s actually pretty close to even. But Ryu’s most difficult match, Claw, is just barely 7-3 IMO. I think it’s actually still pretty close to 8-2, but that’s only cuz I believe the Wall Dive nerf didn’t help Ryu that much. So I don’t see how some people can rate Ryu’s matches so high that he overtakes Claw, Dhalsim and Boxer as number 1.
I know I said in a previous post that it’s 6-4, but on second thought, I’mma change that to 7-3. Reason being that even in ST, Ryu’s difficulty vs Claw has always been getting close to Claw, and that’s still the same in HDR.
But I agree with Kuroppi, it would be nice to have some top players contribute their opinions. And it would be nice to see more high level Claw players in HDR. Just so I can see Ryu and Ken players like DGV, Choi and damdai battle them, and hopefully I can pick up some tips that way. = J
Heh, funny thing is that, in HDR, I now fear Dhalsim less than any other character when using Cammy. I think that’s mostly due to the way I like to play, though – I enjoy attacking a lot, and while fighting Zangief or T.Hawk isn’t hard, it does take more patience than I’m usually willing to muster, especially in XBL HDR where you get a lot of guys who just sit back and low jab or play condor dive guessing games. Vs. Dhalsim, rush-down just happens to be the most advisable course of action.
Yes! I had typed up the exact same sentiment in my post that you quoted, but I decided that the complexity in the observation might not be warranted or even legitimate.
e.g. Zangief beats Ryu and Boxer, two of the strongest characters in the game, so he should score more points to that effect. (I had a notion, though, that this might introduce some kind of weirdly recursive algorithm in a holistic calculation of scores, and I didn’t want to incur the wrath of Zass or Sirlin some other MIT graduate.)
You nail the jumping :MK: cross-up, that’s ball game 80% of the time. Didn’t someone else post some videos in this thread of YuuVega constantly looking for that opportunity, then getting it and winning the round as a result? I can’t think of any attack sequence that turns the tide of a match as quickly, as decisively, and as fatally as that. That’s gotta be worth some extra points in the rankings. He’s probably not top tier, but now that he has an escape reversal and :u::mp: juggling on top of the murderous cross-up, no way is he bottom tier.
Would peoples’ opinions really change if I could prove that it’s not incredibly hard to deal with Splash and J.Lp? Because, while I think that Hawk isn’t outclassed in this match by any means, Splash and J.Lp are not exactly huge issues. I may be wrong, but I think Jiggly would agree that these aren’t really his main tools for winning the match, even though they help.
In any case, if that’s all that Chun players worry about, I can show a few japanese match videos that demonstrate how to deal with this. Or, if Jiggly is up to it, we can record a few match videos on GGPO or something which will demonstrate that, while Hawk is a contender, she is not shut down by two freaking moves.
I always thought so too, but then i watched Cvital take a room full of dictator players apart over about 30 matches the other night and thought “ok, evens seems about right”.
It’s tough to call matchups that involve characters like sim, hawk, fei, etc that you rarely see played to their full potential , but when you do see it, it can change your mind a bit on this kind of stuff. You kind of think "shit, what if every sim player i faced played that way? Sim would rocket up my “personal tier list”.
Bison did get a lot of stuff in the remix that helps this matchup. St.Jab works a lot better as an anti air against sim’s drill BS now, sim has to be more careful with spacing and aiming them, and can’t spam quite so easy . The new DR helps bison in getting out of ticks, the noogie was nerfed a bit, and all of bison’s other little buffs that he got didn’t hurt, so dic can definitely keep pace, but on the other hand, sim can generate a wall of normals to keep bison out, and has phenomenal lockdown potential on Dic when he’s in a corner, and can be clever with his upflames to shut down bison’s headstomp/devil’s reverse aerial pressure game. Also, his fierce throw range is still huge, which keeps him on a par with dic’s throw game, and he has a good tick game too, which hurts Dic. Sim’s biggest downside in this match is that he gets dizzied way too easy, which is an auto win for Dic when it happens, but this is the same as ST anyways, and dic takes less damage with his TOD now too cause of the overall damage output being lowered. I think 50/50 is about right for this match, but like i say, i’m along way from a top player.
I agree with this, Ryu didn’t change at all except for fake FB. He was already tough competition in the right hands in ST, and all the guys above him were nerfed in varous ways as well as half the cast (O.Everybody) being ripped out. Also i think that the fake fireball is WAY underrated so far, and i rarely see it used really cleverly. It depends on what you think is important in your playing style, but based on the way i play, i think mindgames, baiting, and anticipation of your opponent’s gameplan are very important, and the fake fireball helps with ALL of those.
It adds another level to ryu’s game, and makes matches like Ryu v honda or any match that involves fireball wars that he had the lead in work even more in his favour. Anybody who had difficulty with ryu’s fireball zoning game (which was much of the cast last time i checked) now have something else to worry about that might force a mistake and give ryu even more advantage.This all means extra wins, which means higher placement on the overall ranking.
I think he got a little buff, and all of his closest competition in the top tier got a little nerf. From ryu’s point of view that should add up to a decent buff overall, which seems to be being borne out in the tiers so far.
Splash doesn’t really shut her down. However, if she does anything other than somehow counter or avoid the jab, its over.
We can do a set of 10 on HDR during the weekend if you want.
I agree on the first part, I just think most Chun players think it’s impossible/waaaaaaaaay harder than it really is.
I’ll try and be around; I have plans for Saturday night, but I’ll hop on from time to time.