i play bison alomost exlusively. and the ken matchup is not an easy one. jab dragon punch is one of the biggest factors. knock ken down and i dare you to try and safe jump him youll eat it everytime. try a meaty attack when hes knocked down and instead he knocks you down with a dp. cross him over and ken just dps again sometims hitting you but usally just whiffs as does your cr up. of course this depends on the oppents revrsal skill, and how luckey your feeling. just not worth to me cuz you eat the dp, get knocked down, and ken eats you for breakfast with his own cr up, or jump in. the fierce dp is annoying as well, kills the DR very well. when i play against ken all i feel like i ken do is play footsies with lk, mk and hk, bating dps and fbs. ryu def has the better tatsu against bison since his knocks down. you can throw ken out of knee bash lood with your own.
Guilty Gear and Virtua Fighter say hello. I don’t think a game company puts as much thought into their Fighting Games as these two examples. When you have changes from one iteration of GG to the next like “Move now has 3 frames startup instead of 4, downgraded to priority level 2 from 3”, you know they are getting down to the nitty gritty.
- James
This is great thread on the much needed update matchups…What do you guys think of possibly trying to prove these matchups, for example…Have the top 5 “All Star” for each character battle out to 10 matches. Then average their scores up…
I was trying to do it in this thread but not enough people wanted to play, so not sure how easy this will turn out of if this is even feasible…
http://www.shoryuken.com/showthread.php?t=206927&highlight=challenge
Duly noted. I don’t play guilty gear at all, and i’m nowhere near as much of an anorak for VF as i am for street fighter, but it’s good to know that there are companies out there who care about balancing their fighters. I wish where were more.
Why would you try to safe jump on ken? He’s one of only a handful of characters in the game that CAN’T be safe jumped. He has a reversal that hits on the first frame, which means that no matter how good your jump timing is you can ALWAYS get hit.
But the YBH shows that there was that much thought put into the various revisions of SF2, such as with Guile’s low forward.
Sagat vs:
Ryu 5.5-4.5
ken 5.5-4.5
honda 5.5-4.5
chun 6-4
blanka 5.5-4.5
geif 7-3
guile 6-4
sim 3-7
hawk 6-4
fei 6-4
cammy 6.5-3.5
dj 5.5-4.5
boxer 3.5-7.5
claw 5-5
dic 5.5-4.5
I’m not going to bother posting my explanations unless I’m asked too. I’d rather just play whoever disagrees on xbl but for now I’ll say that while I’m sure there are more proficient sagat players out there like st1ffpeter I like to think I have a very good understanding of his matchups.
SO does guile beat sagat or does sagat beat guile, or are they even?
It depends on the skill of the players I suppose. :wgrin:
My thoughts on Hawk vs. Dictator per request.
7-3, Dictators favor. Short and simple explanation, its like fighting Dhalsim on crack.
Long explanation, Dictator can keep Hawk out pretty easily on the ground with St.:hk:, St.:hp:, and St.:lp:. Those moves beat half of whatever kind of jump-in Hawk does, and trades with the other half, and they can all stop the dive clean (although St.:hk: isn’t very practical for that).
Since Hawk can get predictable with jumping, a Hawk Dive is pretty telegraphed. This means J.:mp: juggle all day.
If Dictator gets cornered, he can escape pretty easily with the DR or PC. Its also still pretty tricky to keep Dictator on lock down in the corner since J.:lp: and J:lk: miss a crouching Dictator completely.
A Hawk trying to pin Dictator is like trying to hold onto a squirming fish.
From full screen guile loses, none of his jumpins cleanly stuff dp or tk so he has to trick sagat so he can close the distance somehow, and even when he gets inside to mess up sagat with his footsie game he has to be mindful of the fact that he can be dp’ed at any time. Basically the guile player has more to consider and has a harder time getting in then sagat does of keeping him out (assuming he doesn’t bring the fight to guile in which case it’s never a good thing to be cornered no matter who you are) however once guile gets close enough to play footsies sagat has to be very very careful.
At worst it’s even at best slight advantage to sagat. Speaking only for myself when I use sagat guile is my most “comfortable” matchup I feel at ease because no matter how good the player is there are certain things I can expect them to do and use against them. However, against really good guiles like axel kelly who incorporate things like neutral j hp and backfist instead of overhead I tend to play a bit more cautious because they can bring out guile’s deadly dizzy potential.
Nothing dic has other then super gets him out of hawk, honda, and geifs splash =/.
Don’t know about Gief or Honda, but Dic can just jump back and do J.MP. I do it all the time.
If R.Hawk can corner Dictator without meter, and knock Dictator down, then he can throw loop him to death. Jumping strong -> low jab -> command throw, or substitute in jumping down+strong, or jumping forward for the first hit. All of them will pin Dictator into place, allowing for either a tick command throw or a hit confirm into dragon punch, both of which knockdown and can be repeated over and over.
However if Dictator is pushed into the corner yet still standing, and not knocked down, the he still has a few reliable ways of escaping. I think you two are talking about two very different situations. JigglyNorris seems to be talking about what happens when Dictator’s back is next to the corner but he’s not recovering from a knockdown. Orochizoolander seems to be talking about when Dictator has already been knocked down. Those two situations are distinctly different.
JigglyNorris is right in that if Dictator is merely pushed into the corner then he can escape using a few different methods, some more clean than others. I’ve actually detailed this exact situation in the Dictator thread in this forum. Orochizoolander is right in that if Dictator is knocked down in the corner, then he is basically going to lose the round unless he is with meter or at least one special move away from meter.
Either way Dictator vs Hawk is a pretty easy match for Dictator. He has superior normals, can run away from T.Hawk very easily, and can crush even the best T.Hawk players with crossups.
My year-long experiences on HDR vs. players of skill roughly equal to my own:
Chun-Li 3.5 6.5 Ryu
Chun-Li 4.0 6.0 Ken
Chun-Li 6.0 4.0 E.Honda
Chun-Li 4.0 6.0 Guile
Chun-Li 4.0 6.0 Blanka
Chun-Li 6.5 3.5 Dhalsim
Chun-Li 6.0 4.0 Zangief
Chun-Li 4.5 5.5 Dee Jay
Chun-Li 2.5 7.5 T.Hawk
Chun-Li 6.5 3.5 Cammy
Chun-Li 3.0 7.0 Fei Long
Chun-Li 4.0 6.0 Boxer
Chun-Li 3.5 6.5 Claw
Chun-Li 3.0 7.0 Sagat
Chun-Li 3.5 6.5 Dictator
Cammy 2.0 8.0 Ryu
Cammy 3.5 6.5 Ken
Cammy 2.5 7.5 E.Honda
Cammy 3.5 6.5 Chun-Li
Cammy 2.5 7.5 Guile
Cammy 6.5 3.5 Blanka
Cammy 7.5 2.5 Dhalsim
Cammy 6.0 4.0 Zangief
Cammy 2.0 8.0 Dee Jay
Cammy 7.0 3.0 T.Hawk
Cammy 4.5 5.5 Fei Long
Cammy 3.5 6.5 Boxer
Cammy 5.5 4.5 Claw
Cammy 3.5 6.5 Sagat
Cammy 4.0 6.0 Dictator
These are my ratings for Fei in HDR based on personal experience…
Fei vs Ryu(4-6)Ryu’s Favor - Around 85% of the fodder I play on XBL are easy kills because they don’t know how to shut Fei down with keepaway patterns and feints. Players like DGV, Damdai, Valle and Choi know exactly how to keep Fei at bay and the match pretty much turns into a Shoto vs Mini-E.Honda fest. Granted, Fei can capitalize off of one simple mistake in this match but against seasoned vets…just getting in is most of the battle. It becomes a guessing game for the Fei player when facing a top tournament player in most cases. Also, once a good opponent gets a knockdown you are at the mercy of option select crossup games…and since Fei’s flame kick is not invincible and has been slowed down you have no real control over that situation. You can hope you guess correctly and get a reversal but guess wrong and the trap is reset. I give this a score of 4-6 in Ryu’s favor and that’s being generous towards Fei. Part of me wants to score it 3-7 Ryu, but given the fact that Fei players make it a point to create and capitalize off of one tiny mistake that can turn the tide of the match I give it 4-6 Ryu.
Fei vs Ken(4.5-5.5)Ken’s Favor - This match(like vs Ryu)is different yet the same in the sense that Ken’s fireball keepaway patterns can be an ever bigger headache than Ryu’s thanks to his slow jab fireball and superior dragon punch. What makes this match a little closer imo is Ken’s weaker hurricane kick and lack of a fireball that knocks down…this gives Fei a slightly easier job of getting in. But one knockdown vs a good shoto leaves you at the mercy of crossup games, safe jumps, etc. But against Ken these mind games are even tougher because of his quick recovery on his dp and the fact that his dp beats the flame kick everytime.
Fei vs Honda(4-6)Honda’s favor - The match is still tough as nails, but unlike ST where Fei had an arsenal tiny spit wads to throw at a tank you now have wads of wet toilet paper soaked in pepper spray(if that makes any sense). From the countless matches I have had vs EAMegaman, Kurropi, Super1nyc and a few other Honda players I can say that this match is still heavily in Honda’s favor because Honda simply has more tools at his disposal than Fei does. Fei does have his st.Fierce but it’s not a perfect offensive shield, and once a good Honda has the lead you can be sure they’re gonna make you work for the win and turtle up. So you’re back to ST territory. What gives Fei some hope in this match is that he can get a little closer…like outside of Honda’s sweep range and use Rekka’s as an offensive tool. I am surprised just how well his new rekkas work against Honda, especially one that sticks out alot of random whiffed moves and feints. But I feel landing random rekkas at mid range is a rare exception to the rule outside of high tournament play. . Hitting those openings are done off of sticking out guess rekka pokes with the luxury of stringing a combo if you land the first hit. IMO Fei’s biggest weakness in this match is his slow recovering flame kick. I think it’s his biggest weakness against honda because he can headbutt you or sweep you or slap you down so easily after a missed flame kick… You didn’t see that as often in ST because Fei had great recovery in that game. It’s very tough to cross up honda because of his headbutt. It’s tough to tick throw honda because of his ochio too. Still a very hard match, and still like fighting a tank.
Fei Vs Chun(7-3)Fei’s Favor - Jeez, now I know why NKI was so disgusted with Chun in HDR. Now that Fei has longer Rekkas he can get within range and really put a hurting on Chun Li. And her new spinning BK is easily countered with normals on the ground or win with a trade. Once you get the knockdown on Chun it’s a buffet of options for the Fei player. She can’t throw projectiles fast enough to totally keep fei at a distance. Also, You can do a frame delayed flame kick against her on wake up just out of throw range…if she tries to counter throw you she eats a flame kick…if she tries to counter you with a rising up kick you do sick damage because the flame kick stuffs it cold if timed right…and it’s because of that delayed timing that Fei can press such an advantage in the corner. Chun has to hope something goes right in her favor to get out of the corner. Even against seasoned Chun players, we’ve agreed that the match was much more even in ST. Once in the corner it becomes a total shutdown in most cases…and don’t get me started with lk chicken wing as a corner attack vs chun. It almost becomes rape. Sometimes I feel bad because I know the players I am fighting against are much better than that. Not sure if you guys have watched the Initial D Anime series but I can imagine that going from ST Chun to HDR Chun is like going from a fully tuned AE86 to a base model AE85. The difference? One is like sweet chocolate, the other is shit. But don’t get me wrong. There’s alot damage you can do when you become an expert at flinging poo 
(no offense to Chun players)
Fei vs Blanka(5.5-4.5) Slight advantage to Fei but scores can seesaw…Now before any of you scream bloody tampons about how Fei owns Blanka, know that up until I played against players like BlueTallCans, Maxstah, Real Decoy…I soon realized that Blanka gives Fei HELL once he gets a knockdown. You can’t get too careless with stickin out standing fierce, especially when blanka’s slide comes out so quickly. For some reason in HDR(maybe in ST as well)Blanka’s crossups are difficult to predict. Almost as if you have to guess which way to block…and I know how to block a standard crossup attack. Once Blanka lands that sweet combo of doom(jmp short, stand strong x whatever)chances are you are gonna be dizzy with about half your life gone. A good Blanka won’t roll at you either or stick out fat normals that your standing fierce can counter. Moves like jumping up short, jump away short, make it hard to spam rekkas. You dunno how many times I’ve rekka kenned a good blanka player only to have him jump up at the right second to come down with short kick into a combo. And another thing that hurts fei is that he falls victim to safe jumps vs blanka and that is where Blanka can really punish Fei when he does his slow recovering flame kick. I give the advantage to fei because of his ability to punish Blanka’s missed moves and standing fierce priority. And omg, his jump in kick, stand strong - walk up bit is the most ANNOYING tactic in the game. It’s the new blocked Ken Combo(jump in punch, xinto hurricane, walk up knee bash)for HDR lol! In the sets I have played against great blanka players it always becomes a tossup with no player really gaining an advantage. Sure some times I’ll have a hot streak and obliterate but other times it’s the opposite…hence the 5.5-4.5 scoring.
Fei vs Guile(3-7)Guile’s Favor - This match has alot in common with Fei vs Shotos due to the keepaway/sweep rinse repeat game…but with a twist. If Fei jumps over a boom at close range a good Guile player can either do a low fierce at the last second and trade…and since many Fei players jump in with jab because of the hangtime…it’s a trade in Guile’s favor. Even if you jump in with fwd kick, or rh kick and trade you still lose because the keepaway pattern has been reset. There are very few good Guile players on XBL, but in the hands of players like Watson, Choi and Jason Nelson I am willing to bet that even a seasoned Fei player will have hell just trying to get close enough to do any serious damage to Guile. And that is where all the work is. I am sure many Fei players have no problem getting and and setting up Guile for the kill in most cases, but from my experience in tournament casuals and tournament bracket play you can’t kill what you can’t touch. The reason I mention Choi, Watson and Nelson is because those guys have exceptional charge skills…so much that it seems like I am fighting a shoto version Guile. Fei’s hopes rests on Guile missing a counter move, specifically his flash kick or getting in close enough to cross him up and use mind games on him…that and getting within range to stuff his sonic boom on startup with a rekka ken. Blocked rekkas usually end up being countered with normals or RH flashkick depending on how close you are when the last one is blocked. So if you’re that close to control the flow of the match then you’re doing a damn good job imo.
Fei vs Dhalsim(3.5-6.5)Dhalsim’s Favor - Whereas ST Sim would cut fei to pieces like surgery, Fei can now get in a little easier with his longer range rekkas. That coupled with the fact that sim doesn’t take damage to well gives fei a better chance at winning in hdr, but that’s where the perks end. For some reason Fei’s flame kicks sometimes seem to pass right through Sim’s slide attacks at close range…leaving Fei with no dependable pop up reversal. I remember playing ST vs players like Shirts, Cole, David Spence and SpiderDan and how Fei’s flame kick would have a scooping effect against Sim’s slides. That’s just one piece of it. The other is Fei’s slower recovery of his flame kick. Before in ST, Fei could do a short flame kick and the recovery was quick enough so that Fei could have a better chance of not being countered. In HDR, it’s free damage for the sim player. What I find to be most useful vs Sim is knockdown wakeup games and tick throws/mindgames. Fei’s CW is pretty useless at a distance to get in over fireballs…free sweeps, free st. fwd kicks, free low fierce…still a very tough match for Fei imo. Yes, he gained a few tools but lost some as well which leaves him in the same spot.
Fei vs Zangief(5-5)About even - I rate this match about even due to a few factors. One is Giefs kick lariat. I’ve seen that thing stuff low strong, low fierce and meaties at all ranges. All Gief needs is one single knockdown and after playing haru tejyo and snakeyes I can definitely say Fei has his work cut out for him in this match. Gief now has equalizers like the longer hop, easier walk up SPD’s. Fei has to play this game surgically and pick Gief apart with well timed pokes and take advantage of missed low rh kicks. Given the fact that I’ve only experience this particular match online I can only imagine it being tougher offline. One knockdown is all a good Gief player needs then it’s “take a guess and reverse!” The odds are not in your favor once your on the ground because of Fei’s slower recovery on the flame kick. Blocked Crossup, low jabjabjab…wait(whiffed reversal)spd. If fei does a cw, lariat counter or trade with fierce…rinse, repeat. The match can go either way imo. In ST, Gief had a much harder time vs Fei and now it’s a much better fight.
Fei vs Boxer(3-7)Boxer’s Favor - Even with Fei’s longer reaching Rekka Kens this match is still dominated by Boxer. Either I am getting old, or Boxer is faster because his rushing low punches are insanely fast and tough to counter in hdr…or maybe it’s the online play?? Forget about tossing out flame kicks as much as you used to in ST. Missed flame kicks = super easy hits for Balrog now whereas before it was a little tougher. From my experience you literally have to outbox Balrog and beat him to the punch. Rekka Kens are great intercepting tools against Rogs rush punches. And like all of Fei’s other tough matches it becomes a blind guessing game atleast until you can get a knock down. Once you have a knockdown you can go for Guile type feints and setups, and safe jumps. The bread and butter for the match imo is to catch him slipping with his anti air headbutt and capitalizing with a rekka combo… …that’s what keeps fei in the game. Rogs standing fierce is a very powerful weapon against fei because it pushes him back even when blocking low and does big damage if it connects. But c’mon…Rog is pretty tough to beat for just about everyone.
Fei vs. Claw(3-7)Claw’s Favor - Claw is right up there with Dictator and DeeJay in terms of match difficulty. I’ve had some success with landing random long range rekkas but that’s about it. With Claws excellent mobility and quickness it becomes a cat and mouse game, except you’re the mouse trying to catch the cat and the cat is cutting you to shreds in the process. Short flame kicks used to be a great feint tool vs claw, but now that they are slower it leave Fei open to sweeps, low strongs and walk up throws like crazy. Jumping jab works pretty well as an anti wall dive, but I’ve seen claw grab fei right out it from strange angles so who knows. Lk cw can be useful just outside of your normal attack range but it can be tough to guage since claw can feint an attack or throw and counter you when you go for a flame kick…which is what i almost always see after a lk cw kick. But Once I’m inside you have a few options, but it’s very hard to find a good claw player that will go for foolish counters and leave himself open…too much risk for so little reward damage. It can be a very frustrating match, especially at high level play.
Fei vs. Sagat(6-4)Fei’s Favor - Even against some of the better Sagat players on XBL, I’ve found this match to be much more winnable than before thanks to Sagat’s sensitive arms when left out after a tiger shot and slower tiger shots(compared to OG Sagat). I’ve found that players tend to get tiger knee happy now that he has the ability to juggle…if you’re just right out of tiger knee range you can duck it causing it to whiff and get huge combo damage for free if you’re fast enough to react. Fei is also more effective at mid range thanks to his fierce rekka punches. He can box Sagat at this distance and land combos thus scoring a knockdown. Once you get a knockdown you will see that Sagat suffers from the same problem Chun Li does in the corner(and this is the same in ST). Many Sagat players LOVE to go for the Tiger Uppercut reversal when you do meaties or wake up attacks…do delayed frame flame kick and you stuff his tiger uppercut for free resulting in huge damage for him. Once you stuff a few of them in a row most Sagat players get scared and they’re free for the throwing…once you throw them a few times they start trying to reverse with uppercuts again…you wait and counter with a rekka combo. So many options for Fei once he’s inside. Yes, Sagat’s keepaway game is still strong but not as strong as Ken, Ryu’s or Guiles IMO. Still, a good Sagat will bait most feis into jumping in and that’s where most fei players pay the price. Also, once you’re knocked down you too are also subject to getting your flame kick stuffed with a delayed tiger uppercut. Cuts both ways but I still think Fei wins this fight.
Fei vs Dictator(2-8)Dictator’s Favor - I’ve said before that this match is like chasing down Bizzaro Superman. I’ve played quite a few Bison players both on and offline and while I can beat most of them there are a handful of top players from both the US and Japan that have shown me just how horrible this match is for Fei Long(GigaMsx comes to mind lol). It’s even tougher for Fei now because of his slow recoverying flame kick…free scissor kicks, free psycho crusher, free standing rh. And we all know how FAT fei long’s sprite is, and it’s easy pickins for a good Dic player to do his bread n butter crossup option select combo once he’s knocked you down. Like everyone else, you’ve gotta guess correctly but it sucks double time for fei because he’s such a fat ass. Best advice I can give for this match is DON’T GET KNOCKED DOWN. I get really lucky rushdowns sometimes when I knock Dic down in the corner and go for mixups and shenanigans but I’ve found that his throw range priority is nothing to be fucked with. Once there it becomes a guessing game for both of you but he has a much easier time getting out. Most wins against Dic with my Fei are pretty ugly.
Fei Vs T.Hawk(7-3)Fei’s Favor - IMO it’s gotten tougher for Hawk now that he has a miss animation. Not much has changed in this matchup since ST, and with Fei’s new ranged rekkas he can get a little more bold in his offense. Missed rising Hawks are all too common in this matchup, and his Hawk dive falls prey to standing short and jump jab bigtime. It’s alot of hard work for Hawk to win this match…and since Fei has an easier time controlling the flow of the match(unlike vs gief)it’s tougher for Hawk to get crossup opportunities. I have a much easier time vs Hawk than Gief both in ST and HDR.
Fei vs Cammy(6-4)Fei’s Favor - Jumping jab all day everyday vs Cammy’s hooligan tricks. Cammy’s normals and funky crossups give me more of a headache than hooligan tricks. Toe to toe, imo Fei has the range with the rekkas and the speed to gain the advantage in the fight, and like Sagat and Chun, Fei can punish thrust kick reversal attempts with delayed frame flame kicks for huge damage. The only time Cammy gives me trouble is on the crossup and that’s due to the odd properties of that particular crossup of hers(short kick). Once that bread n butter combo connects, chances are you’re dead. But like I said, I think Fei has the range and speed to control the match and avoid those nasty situation altogether.
Fei vs DeeJay(3-7)DeeJay - This match is worse than fighting a hybrid guile/shoto character. Top DeeJay players like AfroLegends and even average players have an arsenal of normals and specials that sometimes seem like he was custom made to kill Fei lol! First, just getting in is hell if you can avoid getting sweeped upon landing…then once you’re inside all your normals and rekkas get cut like butter with a hot knife …and that hot knife is DeeJay’s low fwd kick. That one move alone is enough to make you wanna rip your hair out. Not only does it counter just about every ground move fei has but it knocks you down and resets the pattern. Like vs Dictator, wins against DeeJay are often ugly with the majority of the match being totally about gaining ground and getting deejay into the corner or better yet, a knockdown. If you’re lucky you can land a rekka combo in between his whiffed fwd kicks and low strongs but it’s pretty tough…but if you’re already losing the match it’s worth going for it for the knockdown alone. Because a knockdown creates opportunity for Feii, especially since DeeJays rising kick doesn’t hit like a dp move. You can hard counter it like Sagat, Chun and Cammy with delayed frame flame kick…but that’s IF he does the rising kick. Time the flame kick wrong and you’re going for a ride in the air. . If DeeJay does a short dread kick then you get pushed away or trade. Either way there goes your chance to do damage. Reset time! Tick throws, baiting missed up kicks and overhead kicks work well if you can get in close enough.
Fei vs Fei - You figure it out. :wasted:
Hmmmm…i would have thought both of these were less in dictator’s favour than you guys seem to think, they both can give him HUGE trouble from a knockdown in the corner. Hawk’s splashes f*ck him up bigtime, and the combination of fei’s rekka pushback and his Jump jab beating EVERYTHING dictator can do in the air causes him serious problems and puts him in the corner very easily for a free mixup…but then, i could just need more practice
Goddamn it, i wish people played with these guys more often, it’s so rare to get practice against a good quality fei or hawk.I’ve played about 2 of each in the past year that weren’t scrub-tastic.
Ryu Ken E.H Chu Bla Zan Gui Dha T.H Cam Fei Dee Bal Veg Sag M.B
Ryu - 6 7.5 6 6 6 5 4 6 6.5 6 6.5 4.5 4 5 5.5
Being a Ryu player with plenty of experience. I have to say this looks dead on accurate to me. WELL DONE! :tup:
One question though. If Ryu Vs Claw is 4 to 6 in HDR, What do you think this is in ST? 3 to 7? LOL Poor little Ryu.
Still 4-6, which is pretty much universally agreed upon if you check out nh2’s US & JP tiers. Fake fireball and fake wall dive don’t really do anything. You might expect the loss of wall dive knockdowns to affect the match dramatically and while it is a drawback, it doesn’t seem to be enough of a factor in actual matches to skew the matchup even half a point.
It’s pretty bizarre how Ryu is sitting above claw (or at the very top for that matter) in this chart but that’s sort of outside my jurisdiction to comment.
I would expect the loss of the wall dive knockdown to get RYU atleast 1/2 point. I know we play a lot of GGPO against each other but I guess I need to experience your HDR Claw to see its affect. When are you online? Send me a friend request.
Ryu seems to make it to a lot of HDR finals but yea Claw should be up there too.
Lol, why is there a “(?)” on my matchup rating for Chun v Hawk? I didn’t say 6-4 Chun Adv. on accident. 
Oh, I think that one was from a pretty old post in the old tier thread, and from the way you wrote it, I wasn’t sure which way the 6-4 went (adv Chun or Hawk), so I guessed from context.