Consensus matchup chart

Classic Fighting Games SSF2T: HD Remix
81

Here is my take on these matchups.

CHAR PTS REASON
Ryu 4 Fake fireball makes it MUCH harder to get in.
Ken 4.5 C. MP is very very good vs Blanka.
E. Honda 4.5 Down back all day.
Chun Li 4.5 J. LK and stored super.
Blanka
Zangief 7 Can keep him at bay all day with 101 anti-airs.
Guile 6.5 Too much work for Guile to keep a good Blanka out.
Dhalsim 5 Easier electric knockdowns help Blanka get in.
T.Hawk 7 (see Zangief strat)
Cammy 5.5 Hops negate her attacks.
Fei Long 4.5 J. LK and C. FP work wonders.
Dee Jay 3 Too many good normals.
Balrog 3 Too many good normals.
Vega 3.5 Crouch + poke = win.
Sagat 5 His hitboxes changed and so has this matchup.
M. Bison 6 101 counters to anything he does.

TOTAL: 73.5

82

Is this correct BTC? I tried to make the format easier to read.

83

I smell serious business brewing. VF4 likes it when men are in the okizeme position, no homo.

84

:rofl:

85

I don’t play HDR nearly as much as I play ST, and not nearly the same level of competition when I do, but from my limited experience, Dee Jay’s matchups do look fairly accurate.

86

Hey Coth, yeah that is correct, sorry I got too lazy when I saw it didn’t post correctly

87

I agree with BTCs list.

The matchups for blanka in the first post are a bit too optimictic.

88

I’ve never been a big fan of the eventhubs tier list, it feels a little compressed (to borrow a word someone used quite well earlier) in places since they included Akuma.


I personally find this to be more accurate.

Zangief v Ken (Agreed with Kuroppi, 4-6 adv Ken)
I main both. I agree that Ken has the advantage. I can’t put my finger on it, but 5.5-6.5 for Ken would seem about right. As Ken vs Zangief, weak hadou, sweep, roundhouse crazy kick keep Gief out nicely, if he does get up close and personal, you can always fierce punch xx tatsu sweep combo to score some hits and some push back. As a Gief player I fear a Ken player with good reversals. New hop is awesome for avoiding sweeps, but you have to predict it right. Random fierce DPs up close are always a threat too. I feel much of Gief’s tick throw gameplan is too risky with Ken’s reversals, so it tends to lean more on normals and getting them to whiff reversals. I know getting in can be a pain, but I haven’t played many Ken players that play a text book keep away game.

I would say Kuroppi has it right at Ken 6, Zangief 4, but it may vary either way

Zangief v Ryu (Agreed with Kuroppi, 4-6 adv Ryu, possibly 6.5)
Strange matchup. My first thoughts was that it was going to be less in favour of Zangief than Vs Ken, but on the other hand it’s probably about the same. The difficulty really comes from effective use of the fake hadou plus the general strength of his zoning game and the fact that his super carries little risk. All things that make it hard to get in, just hard in a different kind of way from Ken. Once in, I feel the match swings in Zangief’s favour as Ryu’s reversal shoryu is not as effective as Ken’s and even if you do get one, it will quite often trade with something, so pressuring is less of a risky business, and I feel more comfortable tick SPD’ing Ryu. I guess how this match rates will depend solely on how good the Zangief player is a working around fireball traps. Again, I think I’m going to agree with Kuroppi. I prefer playing against Zangief with Ken (more comfortable with my zoning setup and moveset), but I feel I would get similar results with Ryu (or better if I was good at using the fake fireball). As Zangief though, I fear a good Ryu more than a good Ken. Against Ryu it’s hard getting in, not so hard once you are in. With Ken it’s not so hard getting in, but harder once you are in.

Zangief v Guile (3-7 adv Guile)
Nothing to say except this is extremely hard work against a good Guile. I actually hate this matchup more than Vs Dhalsim.

Zangief v Honda (2-8 adv Honda)

Ken v Chun Li (5-5)
Does not feel like either character has any outstanding advantages. Aside from the medium shoryu, it’s possible for Chun’s air attacks to trade, so it isn’t quite a free win for Ken. General speed and throw are just annoying but nothing too much to be concerned about.

Ken v Boxer (4-6 adv Boxer)
Agreed with Damdai. I feel Ken has an easier time keeping him away than it is for him to get in, but once he gets in, it’s difficult to shake off a good boxer.

Ken v Cammy (6-4 adv Ken)
Cammy’s limited options for dealing with projectiles pretty much mean that she can get zoned easily. Once outside of her sweet spot she will tend to eat chip damage or have her attempts at getting close stuffed by one thing or another. Only real advantage she has are her great pokes. It’s hard for her to get in, but once she’s in it’s not too hard to get her back out again.

89

A snapshot of the Match-ups as of February 2nd, 2010, with Vanilla Super Turbo Comparison Charts taken from Nohoho’s Site at:



**NEW HD REMIX MATCH UP CHART**
            RY     KE     EH     CH     BL     ZA     GU     DH     TH     CA     FE     DJ     BX     CL     SG     DI     TOTAL   +/-
Ryu         -      6.0    7.5    6.0    6.0    6.0    5.0    4.0    6.0    6.5    6.0    6.5    4.5    4.0    5.0    5.5    84.5    9.5
Vega        6.0    6.0    4.0    5.0    6.0    6.0    6.5    6.0    7.0    5.0    6.0    5.5    4.5    -      6.0    4.0    83.5    8.5
Balrog      5.5    5.5    5.0    5.0    6.5    4.0    6.0    5.0    6.0    4.5    6.5    6.0    -      5.5    6.0    5.5    82.5    7.5
Ken         4.0    -      7.5    5.5    6.0    6.0    4.5    4.0    7.0    6.5    6.0    5.0    4.5    4.0    4.5    6.0    81.0    6.0
Dee Jay     3.5    5.0    6.5    5.0    6.0    6.5    5.0    4.0    6.5    6.0    7.0    -      4.0    4.5    5.0    6.0    80.5    5.5
Dhalsim     6.0    6.0    4.5    4.0    5.0    5.5    6.5    -      4.0    4.0    6.0    6.0    5.0    4.0    7.0    5.0    78.5    3.5
E.Honda     2.5    2.5    -      4.5    6.0    7.5    4.0    5.5    7.5    7.0    6.5    3.5    5.0    6.0    4.5    5.5    78.0    3.0
Sagat       5.0    5.5    5.5    5.5    5.0    7.0    5.0    3.0    6.5    5.5    4.5    5.0    4.0    4.0    -      5.0    76.0    1.0
Chun Li     4.0    4.5    5.5    -      5.5    6.0    5.0    6.0    4.5    5.5    4.0    5.0    5.0    5.0    4.5    5.5    75.5    0.5
Guile       5.0    5.5    6.0    5.0    3.5    6.5    -      3.5    6.0    6.5    5.0    5.0    4.0    3.5    5.0    4.5    74.5    -0.5
M.Bison     4.5    4.0    4.5    4.5    5.0    4.5    5.5    5.0    5.0    6.0    4.5    4.0    4.5    6.0    5.0    -      72.5    -2.5
Blanka      4.0    4.0    4.0    4.5    -      7.0    6.5    5.0    6.5    4.5    4.0    4.0    3.5    4.0    5.0    5.0    71.5    -3.5
Cammy       3.5    3.5    3.0    4.5    5.5    6.0    3.5    6.0    7.0    -      6.0    4.0    5.5    5.0    4.5    4.0    71.5    -3.5
Fei Long    4.0    4.0    3.5    6.0    6.0    6.0    5.0    4.0    5.5    4.0    -      3.0    3.5    4.0    5.5    5.5    69.5    -5.5
Zangief     4.0    4.0    2.5    4.0    3.0    -      3.5    4.5    5.0    4.0    4.0    3.5    6.0    4.0    3.0    5.5    60.5    -14.5
T.Hawk      4.0    3.0    2.5    5.5    3.5    5.0    4.0    6.0    -      3.0    4.5    3.5    4.0    3.0    3.5    5.0    60.0    -15.0

**ORIGINAL VANILLA SUPER TURBO MATCH UP CHART**
            RY     KE     EH     CH     BL     ZA     GU     DH     TH     CA     FE     DJ     BX     CL     SG     DI     TOTAL   +/-
Dhalsim     7.0    7.5    6.5    5.0    8.0    7.5    8.5    -      6.5    6.5    6.5    8.0    5.5    3.5    9.0    6.5    102.0   27.0
Boxer       6.0    6.5    6.5    4.5    7.5    5.5    6.0    4.5    5.5    7.5    7.0    7.0    -      5.5    8.0    6.5    94.0    19.0
Claw        6.0    6.0    6.0    6.0    6.5    6.5    7.0    6.5    7.0    6.0    6.5    6.0    4.5    -      7.5    5.0    93.0    18.0
Ryu         -      6.5    8.0    6.0    7.5    4.5    6.5    3.0    6.0    7.5    6.5    7.0    4.0    4.0    6.5    6.5    90.0    15.0
Chun-Li     4.0    6.5    7.5    -      7.0    7.5    6.0    5.0    5.5    6.0    4.0    6.5    5.5    4.0    6.5    7.0    88.5    13.5
Guile       3.5    6.5    8.0    4.0    6.0    8.0    -      1.5    6.5    8.0    7.5    5.5    4.0    3.0    6.5    5.5    84.0    9.0
DeeJay      3.0    5.0    8.5    3.5    7.5    4.5    4.5    2.0    7.0    8.0    7.5    -      3.0    4.0    5.5    6.5    80.0    5.0
Dictator    3.5    4.0    3.5    3.0    3.5    4.5    4.5    3.5    7.0    8.0    6.5    3.5    3.5    5.0    6.5    -      70.0    -5.0
Sagat       3.5    5.0    6.5    3.5    8.0    6.0    3.5    1.0    6.5    7.0    6.5    4.5    2.0    2.5    -      3.5    69.5    -5.5
E.Honda     2.0    3.0    -      2.5    7.5    8.5    2.0    3.5    6.5    8.0    7.0    1.5    3.5    4.0    3.5    6.5    69.5    -5.5
Ken         3.5    -      7.0    3.5    5.0    4.0    3.5    2.5    5.5    5.0    4.5    5.0    3.5    4.0    5.0    6.0    67.5    -7.5
Fei-Long    3.5    5.5    3.0    6.0    6.5    7.0    2.5    3.5    7.0    7.0    -      2.5    3.0    3.5    3.5    3.5    67.5    -7.5
Zangief     5.5    6.0    1.5    2.5    4.0    -      2.0    2.5    5.5    3.5    3.0    5.5    4.5    3.5    4.0    5.5    59.0    -16.0
Cammy       2.5    5.0    2.0    4.0    6.0    6.5    2.0    3.5    8.5    -      3.0    2.0    2.5    4.0    3.0    2.0    56.5    -18.5
Blanka      2.5    5.0    2.5    3.0    -      6.0    4.0    2.0    7.0    4.0    3.5    2.5    2.5    3.5    2.0    6.5    56.5    -18.5
T.Hawk      4.0    4.5    3.5    4.5    3.0    4.5    3.5    3.5    -      1.5    3.0    3.0    4.5    3.0    3.5    3.0    52.5    -22.5

This clearly shows two things: 1) The tier order hasn’t changed drastically. 2) But the goal of compressing tiers was VERY much accomplished.

Very interesting stuff!! :slight_smile:

  • James
90 

HDR KEN VS ST KEN
            RY     KE     EH     CH     BL     ZA     GU     DH     TH     CA     FE     DJ     BX     CL     SG     DI     TOTAL   +/-
Ken HD      4.0    -      7.5    5.5    6.0    6.0    4.5    4.0    7.0    6.5    6.0    5.0    4.5    4.0    4.5    6.0    81.0    6.0
Ken ST      3.5    -      7.0    3.5    5.0    4.0    3.5    2.5    5.5    5.0    4.5    5.0    3.5    4.0    5.0    6.0    67.5    -7.5

Some of the matches have changed considerably. For example winning an extra 2 matches out of 10 vs Chun Li and Zangief. I think maybe we could consider Nohoho’s tier list, and how the changes made to the characters would impact the matchup as well. I guess tier lists are basically opinion as much as anything else, but I tend to go by this once since it was sort of a consensus matchup chart made from the opinions of the top Japanese players.

I still get the feeling that the way the tiers are is still much the same as it is in ST, but we just need some more opinions and to refine the data. Ryu is damn good, but I think a pro Dhalsim would still be top tier?

As for Ken, if I removed a few points as I felt was right, he’d lose 3 or 4 points in total and be sat between Honda and Sagat in the HDR chart.


HDR ZANGIEF VS ST ZANGIEF
            RY     KE     EH     CH     BL     ZA     GU     DH     TH     CA     FE     DJ     BX     CL     SG     DI     TOTAL   +/-
Zangief HD  4.0    4.0    2.5    4.0    3.0    -      3.5    4.5    5.0    4.0    4.0    3.5    6.0    4.0    3.0    5.5    60.5    -14.5
Zangief ST  5.5    6.0    1.5    2.5    4.0    -      2.0    2.5    5.5    3.5    3.0    5.5    4.5    3.5    4.0    5.5    59.0    -16.0

This seems pretty good to me.

91

lol, its cool

92

Ken jumping from number 11 to number 4? Interesting.

93

He did get like 99% buffs when you think about it.

94

Guile matchups, (these scores don?t take lag into consideration)

Ryu
6-4 to ryu, Immense fireball pressure, super fireball, hurricane over booms

Ken
6-4 to guile, slower fireballs, hurricane is easier to punish even if it hits

Honda
6-4 guile, guile can flash kick pretty much anything honda can do, plus guile has so many options to beat honda specials

Chun
6-4 to chun, her superb normals and throw games can be a nightmare

Blanka
6-4 to blanka, the slide…need I say more?

Gief
7-3 to guile, gief has to work hard to get in and loses most of his health in the attempt, only in laggy matches does gief pose a problem to guile.

Sim
7-3 to sim, sim just has everything needed to beat guile, great normals which are hard to punish, a quick fireball, long reach

Hawk
7-3 to guile, same reasons as gief, only in laggy situations can hawk have the upper hand

Cammy
7-3 guile, simular to honda, guile can pretty much flash kick anything she does.

Fei
5-5, I don?t think this matchup is as easy for guile as people think, fei has some strong normals and can prevent guile charging by CW pressure.

DJ
6-4 to guile, DJ can be zoned quite nicely, whereas dj cant zone guile, dj?s super is easy to counter with a flash kick.

Rog.

3-7 to rog, he simply smashes guile into submission. I don?t think the designers of the game considered how strong rogs normals are against guile, not to mention rog?s specials which can actually hit guile even tho there is a SB seperating them.

Vega

6-4 to vega, again strong normals that out pioritise guiles and that blasted slide. Vega air game is not as dominant against guile.

Sagat

6-4 to guile, sobat after tigers, easier to jump over tigers, jumping medium kick trades with TU unless sagat does it extremly late, flash kick beats tiger knee

Bison

6-4 guile, bisons jumping arc and big special moves make him suseptable to air throws, back breakers and flash kicks. Bison has to land a killer combo to dominate this match.

95

Guile matchups, (these scores dont take lag into consideration)

Ryu
6-4 to ryu, Immense fireball pressure, super fireball, hurricane over booms

Ken
6-4 to guile, slower fireballs, hurricane is easier to punish even if it hits

Honda
6-4 guile, guile can flash kick pretty much anything honda can do, plus guile has so many options to beat honda specials

Chun
6-4 to chun, her superb normals and throw games can be a nightmare

Blanka
6-4 to blanka, the slide…need I say more?

Gief
7-3 to guile, gief has to work hard to get in and loses most of his health in the attempt, only in laggy matches does gief pose a problem to guile.

Sim
7-3 to sim, sim just has everything needed to beat guile, great normals which are hard to punish, a quick fireball, long reach

Hawk
7-3 to guile, same reasons as gief, only in laggy situations can hawk have the upper hand

Cammy
7-3 guile, simular to honda, guile can pretty much flash kick anything she does.

Fei
5-5, I dont think this matchup is as easy for guile as people think, fei has some strong normals and can prevent guile charging by CW pressure.

DJ
6-4 to guile, DJ can be zoned quite nicely, whereas dj cant zone guile, djs super is easy to counter with a flash kick.

Rog.

3-7 to rog, he simply smashes guile into submission. I dont think the designers of the game considered how strong rogs normals are against guile, not to mention rogs specials which can actually hit guile even tho there is a SB seperating them.

Vega

6-4 to vega, again strong normals that out pioritise guiles and that blasted slide. Vega air game is not as dominant against guile.

Sagat

6-4 to guile, sobat after tigers, easier to jump over tigers, jumping medium kick trades with TU unless sagat does it extremly late, flash kick beats tiger knee

Bison

6-4 guile, bisons jumping arc and big special moves make him suseptable to air throws, back breakers and flash kicks. Bison has to land a killer combo to dominate this match.

96

I often think that communities like SRK have gotten far deeper into games like SSF2T than it’s original designers ever did. We give such creedence to capcom for designing one of the most deep and balanced fighters ever devised, but i have a feeling that far more of it was by accident than we give them credit for. Weren’t combos originally a happy accident that had never been meant to make it into SF2 in the first place?..I bet they never considered quite a lot of stuff like character and matchup balance as deeply as we think they did.

I have a feeling Dave Sirlin’s work on HDR was about as deep as that kind of balancing train of thought ever went in any fighting game. Getting down to the individual matchup ramifications of nearly every move in the game is a HUGE amount of work.

This looks a little more accurate to me for dictator’s matchups, i’m surprised that ken is seen as tougher than ryu for dic, i would have thought they were about the same, both have a very slight advantage only, and i would think fei is a tougher match than 6-4 in bison’s favour, but i might just be shit at that matchup. The only one that sticks out as still wrong to me is dictator going evens with T.Hawk. I still think hawk has an edge in that matchup. I’d be interested in getting Jigglynorris’s oppinion on it, as he’s the best hawk i’ve played, and one of the best dictators, so he should have a good take on it. I’m happy to go with what the community and better players think, but I think hawk wins it by 0.5 or 1 point because it’s so difficult for dictator to have a mistake free round against him that doesn’t lead to hawk getting in and pulverising him.

It’s a relief to see dictator rising up the rankings a little bit from his initial 4th from the bottom placing. I think he should end up back around mid tier after all this new tier list stuff is sorted out. I wonder if sirlin will have any comment on the fact that this seems to show his goal of compressing the tiers has been borne out in the long run?

97

I Agree, but its neccessary if a game such as this is to have true balance

98

I think you are right on the money. It’s easy to over analyze stuff and look for things that weren’t there. It kind of reminds me like when we were at school and you would read a book and have to break it down to what the author was thinking or how they felt at the time, looking for meanings that probably didn’t even exist. They probably just wanted to write an entertaining story rather than pepper it with hidden meanings and feelings.

I think that maybe the punch tatsu and knee bash factors in to it what with the shenanigans and Dictators lack of a good reversal. Fierce Shoryu arc may help too for full screen. It’s a match I’d rather play as Ken than Ryu. I also have more confidence in Ken’s reversal, which is really important when facing an opponent with a ToD combo. My Ken needs work, but I think that 6-4 to Ken is reasonable.

99

Yep, definitely. Comunities like SRK take games like street fighter to the next level after they’ve been released. It’s why the game continues to grow and develop and strategies continue evolve long after the developers have written their last line of code.

As far as i know (correct me if i’m wrong), HDR has been the only game so far that’s been revisited to have all of the knowledge that was built up by the community in the (considerable) period since it first hit the streets put to good use in tweaking some of the balance issues that slipped under the radar WITHOUT it being put to use in an entirely new iteration, rather than just a rebalance for the same game. I doubt that any commercial game development company would be willing to put as much effort and testing time in in their initial development of a game as Sirlin did in the remix of HDR, it would just be too much playtesting cost by a developer in order to please too few people (purists like us) but i think the way HDR was remixed could be a blueprint for companies to refine the balance of their fighting games in future, particularly ones that are sold via DLC, and don’t need a big spend on things like shipping, pressing, logistics, etc by the developer in order to release a second version. Kind of like an extended large-scale public beta test of the final release.

OR…they could just troll the boards, take a year to gather all the free feedback, patch the game fairly cheaply, throw in an extra character or two, and call it super hyper whatever the original game was called, and sell it to us all again for another $50…but we wouldn’t be dumb enough to fall for something as cynical as that…would we?:wink:

100

Is there still a way to give people bad rep?